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Re: [orca-list] Fwd: Re: OT: What have I done?

Although I agree with your sentiment, I think high expectations is what every effort needs to succeed. I think the expectation that every cross platform application is going to work equally well across all platforms and that every bug on every platform will be given the same weight is also an unrealistic expectation, but I think it's good that it's out there. Developers, program managers, executives and so on need to know what customers want if they're going to put products and applications out there that meet customer needs.
I think it's a perfectly reasonable think for a customer to want to manage their iPhone with their computer. If that's a deal breaker for them then they shouldn't use Linux. It's unfair to call them spoiled because of that. It's a known fact in the IT world that many customers pick their platform based on the applications that are supported, so the blind are no different than everyone else in this respect. Therefore, it's unfair to say that most blind people are unwilling to consider alternatives. Some are, but in this respect they're no different than their sighted counterparts. Linux isn't the most popular desktop operating system amongst sighted users either. 

On 11/06/2015 11:03 PM, kendell clark wrote:

hi
Forwarding this to the list. I really ought to check the to field before
replying, lol.


hi
This is fantastic to hear. I'll also add though, that in my own personal
opinion, windows using blind people have entirely too high expectations
for linux and free software. Of the few I've talked to who will consider
linux, the conversation goes like this. Linux? Sure, I'll use it, so
long as all my programs, free and proprietary are there. I don't want to
have to learn anything, I don't care about open source, I just want
iTunes, photoshop, all the stuff on windows or I'll stick with windows.
I hate espeak, it sounds like sh** I want eloquence or human sounding
voices. I do not mind in the slightest helping people. But those are
expectations I cannot meat. To be frank, it's not linux's responsibility
to get all the proprietary stuff these people seem to want, but rather
the user's responsibility to adapt. There is software, good software for
working with iDevices, working with photos, gimp comes to mind, but
there are others. You have to be willing to use alternatives, and that's
something I can get very few blind people to do. I want to emphasize
that the sighted world in linux *does* care about accessibility, they
just often don't know how to fix bugs if they break. This is true on
windows as well, though on windows you have blind agencies trying to
muddy the waters with heavy "go team!" messages. I'm not going to quit.
But as long as blind people on windows do not lower their expectations
my frustration will probably not lessen. They seem to take people like
joanmeri diggs, rob, myself and kyle for granted and seem to expect that
their every need should be met post haste. Am I just having the bad luck
to deal with a particularly spoiled sector of the blind community or is
that how most are? Keeping in mind that my main source of contact with
blind people is through the alteraeon multi user dungeon, and the
occasional troll that wanders his/her way onto a linux list?
Thanks
Kendell calrk


On 11/06/2015 02:16 PM, Victor Lawrence wrote:

Hi Kendell:

Thank you for your commitment to Linux and open source development.
Also, thank you for venting on this list as I think it was necessary
for someone who is involved in the development of all this to do so.

Just yesterday on another tech list I'm on, someone expressed his
reluctance to recommend Linux to the blind for all of the reasons you
have stated.  You might be encouraged to know that this person praised
you and Kyle as two of the few people in the Linux community who are
actually very helpful.  He also said that you and Kyle seemed like
"great dudes."  Lol

If I stay with Linux, it will be Vinux or Sonar that I use because of
people like you, Kyle, Rob and others who are doing fantastic work!

I haven't tried Sonar yet, but Vinux has been a life saver for me and
I definitely appreciate all the work that all of you are doing.  But I
also understand the frustrations expressed by you and others.

One thing that was emphasized by the person on this other tech list
was that casual computer users and the blind will never switch to
Linux until there is enough simple documentation for them to use.
Plus, they won't switch until they can find enough kind and patient
Linux experts to hold their hands and help them learn.

Kendel, I hope that you, Kyle, and all of the developers will keep up
the great work.  I also hope that you will be patient enough with
those of us who need help even though we sometimes ask stupid
questions and seem as if we don't want to learn on our own.  As this
person on the other list pointed out, most people still think that
Linux is just too hard to learn.  I hope people like you and all of us
can change this perception.

Kendell, please don't give up!

VictorOn 11/6/15, kendell clark <coffeekingms gmail com> wrote:

hi
This is very, very helpful. I too have just installed vinux alongside
sonar, and am extremely pleased with it. I'll make sure to write to you
if I need to vent, which I do occasionally. To be honest, windows seems
better at first, but I remember being just as frustrated with windows
before switching, because in windows, unlike linux, most programs are
proprietary, so even if a developer wanted to fix accessibility issues
they often can't. In linux there's a lot of interest in accessibility,
sighted people realize that it's important, but when asked to fix a bug
their kneejerk response is, I don't know anything about accessibility.
There's quite good docs on the gnome sight with all the geeky api
details people need, they just need to be pointed to it. I don't think I
am capable of quitting. I'm still working on sonar and I like the idea
of creating a linux distribution that a blind person, knew to linux can
pick up and use. I'm often frustrated by the fact that things aren't
working like I've been told they ought. Your braille issues for example.
Did you ever solve it? If not, tomorrow I can connect to our mumble
server and try to walk you through it. Do you have a microphone? If so,
press enter on the "connect to our mumble server for help" icon, enter a
user name and then start speaking. I've used windows 10. While it's
accessible, I don't like the windows culture of "pay to play" Nvda is
quite good, it's the best screen reader for windows in my opinion, but
I've had so many problems just keeping mellisa's windows system up and
running that it's sort of got a bad stigma. I'd also advise you not to
give up. I'm sorry linux hasn't proved as plug and play as I've gone out
of my way to make it but once the problems with braille are fixed
they'll stay fixed.
Thanks for your very encouraging response
Kendell clark


On 11/06/2015 02:09 AM, Mallard wrote:

Kendell,

I understand and share your discouragement concerning the open source
community, but, for what it's worth, you're one of the main reasons why
I'm giving Linux another chance.

I am nobody in the field of computers. I'm a simple user, and have no
knowledge of programming or codes or anything. All I know is that if
something works, I can use it. If it doesn't, I have to move on to
someting else...

What you state in your email is the reason why I'm sticking with
Windows, in spite of all. I too am passionate about open source. I use
open source software whenever and wherever I can, but I feel so
frustrated and sad when I see the lack of interest in accessibility on
the part of so many.

When I first approached open source, given its "inclusive" philosophy, I
thought I would find great openness on the part of devs concerning
accessibility... And was greatly disappointed.

And then users. When I asked for help, I got links to documentation that
was hundreds if not thousands of pages long, of which I'd probably only
need one line... Which I couldn't single out...

This happened in both the sighted and visually impaired communities,
until I subscribed to the Vinux mailing list, where I found a totally
different, warmer, and helpful environment.

The same is now true of this list, not to talk about the Sonar group,
which is small, but very helpful...

So, Kendell, please don't quit. Be discouraged, if you need to. Write to
me if you feel like letting somethings out of your system, and you don't
want to alienate  others in the community. But please, please, please,
don't quit!

I've just installed the latest Sonar and Vinux on my machine, and I'm so
happy with both.

You people are doing great things, with all the difficulties that are
involved.

I don't often post to mailing lists, but I read, and appreciate, and
care.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it would be good to let Kendell
know publicly that someone really appreciates his commitment, just as he
shared his frustration publicly.

Ciao,
Ollie

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--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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