Linux has and probably always will appeal most to people who are willing to tinker with something rough around the edges. Some people just aren't tempramentally suited to an operating system where they have to learn new ways of doing the things they have been doing on Windows for years. They just want to sit down at the machine do what they want to do and then get up and go on about the stuff they really like doing best.
I've always maintained that computers are tools whose function is to make x, y or z easier or possible for people. If a piece of software or hardware fails in this, noone has any obligation to use it. I fear I must disagree with the statement that people should adapt to software and not the other way around. Software is the tool which must do the bidding of the user.
And, yes, it is absolutely true that, by and large, your average John Q. Public couldn't care less about open source or software freedom. I once did a poll on it for a college project. I found it quite discouraging at the time how few had even so much as heard of open source. I think I polled about two or three hundred folks after the survey ran its course. The only ones who knew about the software alternatives were the ones who answered the survey from lists like these. Everyone else from classmates to family to coworkers didn't know anything about it, said they'd try some of the software but didn't care how the code was written, released, modified ETC. as long as the software had one all-important characteristic. Does it do what I want easily, reliably and effectively? It always comes back to that. Lots of open source software is high quality stuff that does a great job at its given task. On the other hand, there's a lot of stuff that is powerful but not easy to learn or breaks a lot or has asthetic issues or has something else that makes people turn to the proprietary stuff. If the proprietary stuff wasn't any good, noone would pay for it. This is painfully clear to me right now. Someone stole my iPhone last month and I am now using Android as I was able to get a 50 dollar phone on eBay as a temporary stop gap. Every time Talk Back screws up or doesn't read me what I want to know or makes me fiddle with something I never had to fiddle with before, it makes me frustrated and think longingly of how utterly reliable Voiceover is and how well it works. Trust me, when I'm out in the rain trying to call my bus to see if it's coming soon or not and Talkback decides not to react to a double tap on an icon it has just spoken which would let me place the call, the very last thing on my mind is, isn't it wonderful that I'm using open source. My thoughts are pungent, nasty little things full of mayhem directed at my infernal little device.
My two cents, Alex M On 11/07/2015 12:45 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
Although I agree with your sentiment, I think high expectations is what every effort needs to succeed. I think the expectation that every cross platform application is going to work equally well across all platforms and that every bug on every platform will be given the same weight is also an unrealistic expectation, but I think it's good that it's out there. Developers, program managers, executives and so on need to know what customers want if they're going to put products and applications out there that meet customer needs.I think it's a perfectly reasonable think for a customer to want to manage their iPhone with their computer. If that's a deal breaker for them then they shouldn't use Linux. It's unfair to call them spoiled because of that. It's a known fact in the IT world that many customers pick their platform based on the applications that are supported, so the blind are no different than everyone else in this respect. Therefore, it's unfair to say that most blind people are unwilling to consider alternatives. Some are, but in this respect they're no different than their sighted counterparts. Linux isn't the most popular desktop operating system amongst sighted users either.On 11/06/2015 11:03 PM, kendell clark wrote:hi Forwarding this to the list. I really ought to check the to field before replying, lol. hi This is fantastic to hear. I'll also add though, that in my own personal opinion, windows using blind people have entirely too high expectations for linux and free software. Of the few I've talked to who will consider linux, the conversation goes like this. Linux? Sure, I'll use it, so long as all my programs, free and proprietary are there. I don't want to have to learn anything, I don't care about open source, I just want iTunes, photoshop, all the stuff on windows or I'll stick with windows. I hate espeak, it sounds like sh** I want eloquence or human sounding voices. I do not mind in the slightest helping people. But those are expectations I cannot meat. To be frank, it's not linux's responsibility to get all the proprietary stuff these people seem to want, but rather the user's responsibility to adapt. There is software, good software for working with iDevices, working with photos, gimp comes to mind, but there are others. You have to be willing to use alternatives, and that's something I can get very few blind people to do. I want to emphasize that the sighted world in linux *does* care about accessibility, they just often don't know how to fix bugs if they break. This is true on windows as well, though on windows you have blind agencies trying to muddy the waters with heavy "go team!" messages. I'm not going to quit. But as long as blind people on windows do not lower their expectations my frustration will probably not lessen. They seem to take people like joanmeri diggs, rob, myself and kyle for granted and seem to expect that their every need should be met post haste. Am I just having the bad luck to deal with a particularly spoiled sector of the blind community or is that how most are? Keeping in mind that my main source of contact with blind people is through the alteraeon multi user dungeon, and the occasional troll that wanders his/her way onto a linux list? Thanks Kendell calrk On 11/06/2015 02:16 PM, Victor Lawrence wrote:Hi Kendell: Thank you for your commitment to Linux and open source development. Also, thank you for venting on this list as I think it was necessary for someone who is involved in the development of all this to do so. Just yesterday on another tech list I'm on, someone expressed his reluctance to recommend Linux to the blind for all of the reasons you have stated. You might be encouraged to know that this person praised you and Kyle as two of the few people in the Linux community who are actually very helpful. He also said that you and Kyle seemed like "great dudes." Lol If I stay with Linux, it will be Vinux or Sonar that I use because of people like you, Kyle, Rob and others who are doing fantastic work! I haven't tried Sonar yet, but Vinux has been a life saver for me and I definitely appreciate all the work that all of you are doing. But I also understand the frustrations expressed by you and others. One thing that was emphasized by the person on this other tech list was that casual computer users and the blind will never switch to Linux until there is enough simple documentation for them to use. Plus, they won't switch until they can find enough kind and patient Linux experts to hold their hands and help them learn. Kendel, I hope that you, Kyle, and all of the developers will keep up the great work. I also hope that you will be patient enough with those of us who need help even though we sometimes ask stupid questions and seem as if we don't want to learn on our own. As this person on the other list pointed out, most people still think that Linux is just too hard to learn. I hope people like you and all of us can change this perception. Kendell, please don't give up! VictorOn 11/6/15, kendell clark <coffeekingms gmail com> wrote:hi This is very, very helpful. I too have just installed vinux alongsidesonar, and am extremely pleased with it. I'll make sure to write to you if I need to vent, which I do occasionally. To be honest, windows seemsbetter at first, but I remember being just as frustrated with windows before switching, because in windows, unlike linux, most programs are proprietary, so even if a developer wanted to fix accessibility issues they often can't. In linux there's a lot of interest in accessibility,sighted people realize that it's important, but when asked to fix a bugtheir kneejerk response is, I don't know anything about accessibility. There's quite good docs on the gnome sight with all the geeky apidetails people need, they just need to be pointed to it. I don't think Iam capable of quitting. I'm still working on sonar and I like the ideaof creating a linux distribution that a blind person, knew to linux canpick up and use. I'm often frustrated by the fact that things aren'tworking like I've been told they ought. Your braille issues for example.Did you ever solve it? If not, tomorrow I can connect to our mumbleserver and try to walk you through it. Do you have a microphone? If so, press enter on the "connect to our mumble server for help" icon, enter auser name and then start speaking. I've used windows 10. While it's accessible, I don't like the windows culture of "pay to play" Nvda is quite good, it's the best screen reader for windows in my opinion, but I've had so many problems just keeping mellisa's windows system up and running that it's sort of got a bad stigma. I'd also advise you not togive up. I'm sorry linux hasn't proved as plug and play as I've gone outof my way to make it but once the problems with braille are fixed they'll stay fixed. Thanks for your very encouraging response Kendell clark On 11/06/2015 02:09 AM, Mallard wrote:Kendell, I understand and share your discouragement concerning the open sourcecommunity, but, for what it's worth, you're one of the main reasons whyI'm giving Linux another chance. I am nobody in the field of computers. I'm a simple user, and have no knowledge of programming or codes or anything. All I know is that if something works, I can use it. If it doesn't, I have to move on to someting else... What you state in your email is the reason why I'm sticking withWindows, in spite of all. I too am passionate about open source. I useopen source software whenever and wherever I can, but I feel sofrustrated and sad when I see the lack of interest in accessibility onthe part of so many.When I first approached open source, given its "inclusive" philosophy, Ithought I would find great openness on the part of devs concerning accessibility... And was greatly disappointed.And then users. When I asked for help, I got links to documentation that was hundreds if not thousands of pages long, of which I'd probably onlyneed one line... Which I couldn't single out... This happened in both the sighted and visually impaired communities, until I subscribed to the Vinux mailing list, where I found a totally different, warmer, and helpful environment. The same is now true of this list, not to talk about the Sonar group, which is small, but very helpful...So, Kendell, please don't quit. Be discouraged, if you need to. Write to me if you feel like letting somethings out of your system, and you don't want to alienate others in the community. But please, please, please,don't quit!I've just installed the latest Sonar and Vinux on my machine, and I'm sohappy with both. You people are doing great things, with all the difficulties that are involved. I don't often post to mailing lists, but I read, and appreciate, and care.Sorry for the long post, but I thought it would be good to let Kendell know publicly that someone really appreciates his commitment, just as heshared his frustration publicly. Ciao, Ollie_______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list gnome org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/ GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org_______________________________________________ orca-list mailing list orca-list gnome org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/GNOME Universal Access guide: https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.htmlLog bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org