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Re: [orca-list] GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization

The most sensible thing we can do is find the best way to do it that works for the greatest number of people 
and implement it.  If it happens some other screen reader has such functionality, it is utter nonsense not to 
try and see how it can be made to happen for Orca just because the ones doing it aren't FLOSS/Libre.  

My 2 cents,
Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of B. Henry
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 8:40 PM
To: Christopher Chaltain; orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] GUI Redesign or clearup and modernization

You said something here that needs regular repeating I think as people keep narrowing down the new Orca user 
is someone coming from Windows who loves NVDA, or at least knows it very well.
Most people I know of do not come to Linux because they can't afford Windows, but love it and wish they could 
be using it instead of Linux. 
With the obvious exception of institutions, i.e. training centers, schools libraries, etc, if someone wants 
windows they use it, perhaps pirated, and the same goes for jfw, Window-Eyes, or similar. I am not saying 
whether this is  right or wrong, just saying what I've seen  and heard of  from persons in other parts of the 
world.
Yes, probably more people will be coming from windows than any other opperating system for a while, but phone 
OS's may take over as the gateway OS to our Linux-land sometime in a not too far off future.
If you go on an NVDA mailking list you wil seee people regularly say "Why doesn't NVDA have this keybinding 
that jaws uses?"
I of course agree that if something is the best that can be thought of that we should consider trying to copy 
it in the case it is not what we are already doing. 
On the other hand I'll repeat what I've said in the past. Why should we always try to please the potentially 
ex-windows user over our existing base, and why should we prefer the Windows/NVDA user over the person who is 
coming first to Linux?
And as you say, C J, why NVDA? It still is not the most popular windows screenreader, so if we are just going 
after windows users then there's an argument for copying jaws. Of course people who do not have money investd 
in jfw may be more likely to abandon windows than those using a free option, but then on the other hand 
peopple who used an expensive scrfeenreader and do not have the money to upgrade or feel it is not a good use 
of their money may be coming over to our side. 
I can go back and forth and around all evening making points and arguing against them, but the part of the 
"NVDA-like" position that is important I think is trying to make things as easy as possible, but for sure 
copying NVDA should be a very minor considabtion  in and of itself. If a feature is similar to something That 
NVDA has, and is new to orca, then it more likely than not makes sense to use the same keybinding that NVDA 
does, but beyond that?
 I'm not trying to say that anyone here is suggesting that we blindly follow NVDA, but I am saying that we 
should only try to emulate NVDA when that is the best thing objectively that can be done with the resources 
at hand, and so far I think Joani has steered a near perfect course as far as interscreenreader compatibility 
goes/keep up the great work.


-- 
     B.H.
   Registerd Linux User 521886


  Christopher Chaltain wrote:
Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 06:50:30PM -0500


My own opinion is that we should keep our options open to new and 
better ways of doing things. I'd hate to think that NVDA is as good as 
it's ever going to get and that other screen reader developers 
couldn't come up with some new and more innovative ideas. Also, why 
are NVDA and Talk Back being singled out? What about JAWS, VoiceOver, Window Eyes, ChromeVox and so on?
Sure, if everyone agrees that NVDA has come up with the best way to do 
something, and it's OK to copy that in Orca, then I'm all for it. I'm 
just not always convinced that doing it just because it was done this 
way in Windows once means we should automatically do that in Linux or 
Orca. I use NVDA, VoiceOver, JAWS, ChromeVox and Talk Back in addition 
to Speakup, Emacspeak and Orca, and I'm not opposed to learning 
something new if I think it's a superior way of doing things. There 
are plenty of things I prefer about Linux and Orca over Windows. Also, 
if I wanted Linux and Orca to look just like Windows and NVDA then I could just run Windows and NVDA.

On 08/25/2015 01:32 PM, Fernando Botelho wrote:

My own two cents on this is that anything that brings Orca settings 
closer to NVDA or TalkBack settings is good; just so there is an 
easier transition for folks coming to Linux.

Anything that ties Orca too deeply to Gnome and makes it more 
difficult to use it in mate and others is bad.

Best,

Fernando




On 08/25/2015 03:20 PM, Tom Masterson wrote:

Will this still allow us to do some seetings during an istallation 
such as using braille or setting it for a laptop keyboard while in 
an installer? Currently we can do that with orca preferences.

Tom

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015, Josh K wrote:


yes putting the orca gui in the main settings pannel would be nice 
so when you hit the orca control panel command it brings it up and 
if you want you could change other settings also. just maybe put in 
an apply button and a revert to previous settings button or cancel 
or something like that.

follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982
On 8/25/2015 11:40 AM, Storm Dragon wrote:
     Howdy,
     I am in favor for cleaning up the current GUI. I guess 
changing it would be ok, but I like the current layout.
     Thanks
     Storm
     On Tue, Aug 25, 2015 at 04:41:51PM +0200, chrys87 web de wrote:
             Hi Joanie, Hi list,

             >>Ultimately the goal is to migrate everything over 
to gsettings and move
             the GUI out of Orca and into desktop environment 
control centers.Do you
             think its a good idea to integrade it into gcc or 
something? not everyone
             out not everyone use gnome, mate or co. there people 
just running a window
             manager. so there not able to configure orca without gcc?
             maybe its a good idea to provide a GUI into orca but 
that could be
             integrated into gcc?
             to megrate all that stuff to gsettings is a good idea.
I m currently try
             this with ocrdesktop. its really handy.

             >>But given that I keep failing to get to that, if 
you want to redo it
             all, go for it! :)
             I would really like to give a try.
             By the way, is there a reason why the orca-setup.ui is not
             created/modified with glade? i see many differences 
if a open and save the
             .ui file in glade 3.16. i now tried to integrade my 
gui without using
             glade. its not really handy to this large XML like 
structure in an text
             editor ^^.

             Any ideas or mocups how a new GUI should looks like?
this are my Ideas:
             - Many other screenreaders does provide a "context 
menue" similar
             structure. with entrys like "braille", "speak"... if 
you press enter ont
             that entrys a window appears with just the 
corresponding settings (NVDA
             did it this way i think)
             - An other idea could be to provide a "listbox" with 
the settings
             categorys. if you do a click on that category, the 
categorys fade out and
             you are on a new "page" with the corresponding 
settings. (its similar to
             the most smartphones). if you press esc or "back" you 
are in the categorys
             again. mybe here we could also implement an just type 
search for settings.
             i would prefer this.
             - we could just clean up the current GUI and do not 
change the behaviour.

             what do you guys out there think about?

             cheers chrys
             Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. August 2015 um 00:59 Uhr
             Von: "Joanmarie Diggs" <jdiggs igalia com>
             An: chrys87 <chrys87 web de>, orca-list gnome org
             Betreff: Re: [orca-list] To help test the beeping 
progress bars
             Hi Chrys.

             I agree about the GUI cleanup. Ultimately the goal is 
to migrate
             everything over to gsettings and move the GUI out of 
Orca and into
             desktop environment control centers. But given that I 
keep failing to
             get to that, if you want to redo it all, go for it! 
:)

             Thanks!
             --joanie

             On 08/24/2015 06:28 PM, chrys87 wrote:
             > thanks for sharing that ^^, meanwhile i copied TB 
of data for having
             > progress bars XD.
             > By the way:
             >
             > current changelog:
             > - i fixed the accidentally broken labels in the 
progress bar section
             > - the beep is now 75 ms
             > - you can now both (voice announcement and beep) 
enabled via the
             checkboxes
             > - gstreamer is now optional
             > - currently i m working on a sounde volume scale. 
but now i go asleep
             :).
             >
             > after that i have to optimize the GUI integration 
(but there is many
             > time until 3.20 ;) ).
             >
             > IMO the orca GUI code has to be cleared up. maybe i 
try to do this next
             > if joanie has nothing against it? or what about a 
little redesign of the
             > GUI? maybe more "context menu like"?
             > what does the list think about a new shine settings 
GUI? or what did you
             > think about joanie?
             >
             > Am 25.08.2015 um 00:14 schrieb Storm Dragon:
             >> Howdy,
             >> So the new beeping progress bars rock, but 
sometimes it's hard to
             >> figure out something to do on demand that requires 
a progress bar. I,
             >> therefore, have written a tiny bash app to solve 
this. You can change
             >> the delay variable at the top if you would like to 
see how the beeps
             >> respond to different times. The delay is in 
seconds, and can be a
             >> decimal. Attached is progress.sh.
             >> To get the latest code for the progress bar beeps:
             >> git clone https://github.com/chrys87/orca-beep.git
             >> cd orca-beep
             >> Then, for arch users:
             >> ./autogen.sh --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc 
--localstatedir=/var
             >> make
             >> sudo make install
             >> HTH
             >> Storm
             >>
             >>
             >> _______________________________________________
             >> orca-list mailing list
             >> orca-list gnome org
             >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
             >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more 
information on Orca.
             >> The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
             >> The FAQ is at
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
             >> Log bugs and feature requests at 
http://bugzilla.gnome.org
             >> Find out how to help at 
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
             >
             >
             >
             > _______________________________________________
             > orca-list mailing list
             > orca-list gnome org
             > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
             > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more 
information on Orca.
             > The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
             > The FAQ is at
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
             > Log bugs and feature requests at 
http://bugzilla.gnome.org
             > Find out how to help at 
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
             >


           References

             Visible links
             . https://github.com/chrys87/orca-beep.git
             . https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
             . http://live.gnome.org/Orca
             .
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
             . http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
             . http://bugzilla.gnome.org/
             . http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
             . https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
             . http://live.gnome.org/Orca
             .
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
             . http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
             . http://bugzilla.gnome.org/
             . http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


           _______________________________________________
           orca-list mailing list
           orca-list gnome org
           https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
           Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information 
on Orca.
           The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
           The FAQ is at
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
           Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
           Find out how to help at 
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp





_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.htm
l The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp







_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at 
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to help at 
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
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