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Re: [orca-list] Changing the keybindings to be JAWS-like or NVDA-like (was Re: In Search Of The Main Developers Of Orca)

hi
I'm going to weigh in here. As a former windows supporter, I find some
features in nvda I'd like to see in orca, and some features of orca
I'd like to see in nvda. One of the major ones I'd like to see in orca
is iAccessible2 support, so that apps that don't take advantage of the
atk api, or who don't implement it properly would at least be somewhat
accessible, instead of being completely silent. Another is the beeping
on a form field, but that's not hard to get used to hearing entry
instead. Other than that, orca wins out over nvda in my opinion. The
ability to bind a keystroke to do most of it's functions is a big
advantage, although nvda may have this feature now, I'm not sure. The
ability to read all notifications with a keystroke is really useful.
I'd like to see more notifications be accessible, but this is
completely unrelated to the debate, so I'll say no more. I don't want
orca to become nvda, but I would like more accessible apps. An
additional accessibility api might help. I won't pretend to know how
this could be done, or how easy or hard it would be, but it's just a
thought.
        

On 05/12/2014 07:04 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I hope no one thinks I meant to bash NVDA, JAWS or any other
screen reader. I agree that such bashing is counter productive, and
I have too much respect for the programmers working on screen
readers to ever participate in such bashing. I also find that a lot
of misinformation is included in such bashing. Although I like the
way Orca does some things, I don't' think it's perfect, and there
are definitely features I like in both NVDA and JAWS.

Along that same line, I wouldn't encourage freezing out Freedom 
Scientific from any effort to collaborate on some common key
bindings. FS may not participate, but they definitely won't
participate if they aren't invited in the first place. FS has
collaborated with Microsoft, GW Micro, Apple and others in the past
on standards and protocols, so it isn't obvious to me that they
wouldn't be interested in such a collaboration on common key
bindings.

Since I don't think I ever accused anyone of proposing that Orca
become an NVDA clone, I'm not sure I'm guilty of letting the
perfect be the enemy of the good, although that does sound kind of
cool. I just am not convinced that JAWS is the gold standard when
it comes to usability, and I'm not sure that with other platforms
becoming so popular with the blind, that it'll always be the case
that JAWS is the screen reader most people will be familiar with
when moving to Linux. I just wouldn't want this drive to
standardization result in just settling for the lowest common
denominator. As I said below, I wouldn't want to stifle anyone's 
creativity and prevent an even more intuitive screen reader
interface from being developed. I'm all for commonality and
collaboration, which I think I touched on below. This will require
some effort though, on the part of all of the screen reader
developers, as you mention, so I think if it's to happen on Orca,
some people will have to step forward to help out. I'm not sure I'd
make it my highest priority when it comes to Orca features though.

On 05/12/2014 08:48 AM, John G. Heim wrote:

I think you are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Nobody is advocating rewriting orca to be an nvda clone. As
Joanmarie already said, it can't be done anyway. I wouldn't
advocate that even if it was possible. But this reminds me of
what goes on on a Mac list if you dare to suggest that voiceover
isn't the greatest thing to ever happen to all of mankind. The
flood of criticizsms of jaws, nvda, and especially orca is
overwhelming.  That kind of attitude is counterproductive. None
of these screen readers is perfect.

The one point that comes out here, though, is that what we really
need is a way for cooperation to occur. It's natural on this list
to talk about orca but really, if keybindings and other features
are to be standardized as much as possible, it would take at
least as much effort on the part of the nvda developers as it
would the orca developers. Who knows if the nvda developers would
be at all open to such a relationship. I think you can forget
about getting cooperation from Freedom Scientific.

BTW, one other point I should make is that what I am saying is
that we, as a group of users, shouldn't dismiss a slightly
modified version of the original suggestion that the orca and
nvda user interfaces be made as similar as possible. As someone
who hasnever contributed a single line of code to either orca or
nvda, I am well aware that I have no right to set policies. I'm
not doing that. I am just saying that the idea  is a good one and
should not be dismissed. But I am willing to do what I can to
help with it.


On 05/11/14 18:13, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I'm not fond of this idea myself. Here are some rambling
thoughts.

Right now I use Windows and JAWS at the office. At home I use
either Windows and NVDA or Ubuntu and Orca. In my previous job,
I used Ubuntu and Orca, and that's what I used at home, so for
over three years, I exclusively used Ubuntu and Orca at work
and at home. Prior to that, I used Windows and JAWS almost
exclusively. In the deep past, I used OS/2, DOS, AIX and
various Linux distributions with their associated screen reader
options.

One problem I see with this is that just because JAWS uses a
certain set of key strokes doesn't mean that there aren't a
easier and more intuitive set of key strokes out there. I'd
hate to see creativity stifled just to remain consistent with
JAWS. For example, I strongly prefer the way Orca allows me to
review my screen over either JAWS or NVDA. Ditto for my
interaction with forms in web browsers. I also think Orca+t is
much more intuitive to query the time than JAWS+F12.

With the increasing popularity of other operating systems, such
as Apple's, and with different options of screen readers on
Windows, like NVDA, Window Eyes and System Access, I'm not sure
JAWS will always be consider the default screen reader for
blind computer users. Making it easier for JAWS users to move
to Linux may not help much in a few years when JAWS isn't the
screen reader used by most blind computer users.

I know you mention JAWS and NVDA, but they aren't identical in
their feature set or their use of key strokes. A few
differences I run into all of the time is that JAWS+down-arrow
reads the rest of the document while NVDA+a does this. The pass
through keys are different as well. A more significant example,
which I mentioned above, is that NVDA and JAWS handle screen
reviewing differently.

IMHO, Orca should do what makes sense and not be tied to the
key bindings used by another screen reader. Of course, where
there's a growing consensus, Orca should use that if there's no
reason not to.

On 05/10/2014 10:38 PM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

Hi Bhavya.

On 05/10/2014 05:15 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:


I am currently a Windows user wanting to witch to Linux. 
Also, according to me most Linux users must be ex Windows
users. Therefore I request you to alter the keyboard
shortcuts of Orca just like the keyboard shortcuts of JAWS
or NVDA. I find the JAWS/NVDA commands more fficient and
quick. Please inform me about your views and opinions. I am
ready to provide a list of shortcuts of JAWS or NVDA if
Google doesn't turn it up. Also NVDA is open source so you
can just pick up some source code or something. Please tell
me if you are willing or interested.


This question periodically comes up on the Orca list. In the
past, the conclusion has been that when it makes sense for
the keybindings to be the same, we do so. Examples include
the keys for web navigation.

The problem, however, is that Orca is not a JAWS clone or an
NVDA clone. There are commands in Orca that don't exist in
JAWS or NVDA and vice versa. And GNOME is not a Windows clone
-- heck, it's even been accused of trying to imitate Apple
<grins>. So I don't think it is as simple as just changing
the shortcuts as you request.

Orca does, however, make it possible for you to rebind any
keybindings you want to whatever you want. So you could fix
this problem for yourself if all you yourself need is
JAWS/NVDA-like shortcuts.

Having said all that, I am CCing the Orca list so the
community can chime in.

Take care. --joanie

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