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Re: [orca-list] Changing the keybindings to be JAWS-like or NVDA-like (was Re: In Search Of The Main Developers Of Orca)

I hope no one thinks I meant to bash NVDA, JAWS or any other screen reader. I agree that such bashing is counter productive, and I have too much respect for the programmers working on screen readers to ever participate in such bashing. I also find that a lot of misinformation is included in such bashing. Although I like the way Orca does some things, I don't' think it's perfect, and there are definitely features I like in both NVDA and JAWS.
Along that same line, I wouldn't encourage freezing out Freedom Scientific from any effort to collaborate on some common key bindings. FS may not participate, but they definitely won't participate if they aren't invited in the first place. FS has collaborated with Microsoft, GW Micro, Apple and others in the past on standards and protocols, so it isn't obvious to me that they wouldn't be interested in such a collaboration on common key bindings.
Since I don't think I ever accused anyone of proposing that Orca become an NVDA clone, I'm not sure I'm guilty of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, although that does sound kind of cool. I just am not convinced that JAWS is the gold standard when it comes to usability, and I'm not sure that with other platforms becoming so popular with the blind, that it'll always be the case that JAWS is the screen reader most people will be familiar with when moving to Linux. I just wouldn't want this drive to standardization result in just settling for the lowest common denominator. As I said below, I wouldn't want to stifle anyone's creativity and prevent an even more intuitive screen reader interface from being developed. I'm all for commonality and collaboration, which I think I touched on below. This will require some effort though, on the part of all of the screen reader developers, as you mention, so I think if it's to happen on Orca, some people will have to step forward to help out. I'm not sure I'd make it my highest priority when it comes to Orca features though. 

On 05/12/2014 08:48 AM, John G. Heim wrote:

I think you are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Nobody is
advocating rewriting orca to be an nvda clone. As Joanmarie already
said, it can't be done anyway. I wouldn't advocate that even if it was
possible. But this reminds me of what goes on on a Mac list if you dare
to suggest that voiceover isn't the greatest thing to ever happen to all
of mankind. The flood of criticizsms of jaws, nvda, and especially orca
is overwhelming.  That kind of attitude is counterproductive. None of
these screen readers is perfect.

The one point that comes out here, though, is that what we really need
is a way for cooperation to occur. It's natural on this list to talk
about orca but really, if keybindings and other features are to be
standardized as much as possible, it would take at least as much effort
on the part of the nvda developers as it would the orca developers. Who
knows if the nvda developers would be at all open to such a
relationship. I think you can forget about getting cooperation from
Freedom Scientific.

BTW, one other point I should make is that what I am saying is that we,
as a group of users, shouldn't dismiss a slightly modified version of
the original suggestion that the orca and nvda user interfaces be made
as similar as possible. As someone who hasnever contributed a single
line of code to either orca or nvda, I am well aware that I have no
right to set policies. I'm not doing that. I am just saying that the
idea  is a good one and should not be dismissed. But I am willing to do
what I can to help with it.


On 05/11/14 18:13, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I'm not fond of this idea myself. Here are some rambling thoughts.

Right now I use Windows and JAWS at the office. At home I use either
Windows and NVDA or Ubuntu and Orca. In my previous job, I used Ubuntu
and Orca, and that's what I used at home, so for over three years, I
exclusively used Ubuntu and Orca at work and at home. Prior to that, I
used Windows and JAWS almost exclusively. In the deep past, I used OS/2,
DOS, AIX and various Linux distributions with their associated screen
reader options.

One problem I see with this is that just because JAWS uses a certain set
of key strokes doesn't mean that there aren't a easier and more
intuitive set of key strokes out there. I'd hate to see creativity
stifled just to remain consistent with JAWS. For example, I strongly
prefer the way Orca allows me to review my screen over either JAWS or
NVDA. Ditto for my interaction with forms in web browsers. I also think
Orca+t is much more intuitive to query the time than JAWS+F12.

With the increasing popularity of other operating systems, such as
Apple's, and with different options of screen readers on Windows, like
NVDA, Window Eyes and System Access, I'm not sure JAWS will always be
consider the default screen reader for blind computer users. Making it
easier for JAWS users to move to Linux may not help much in a few years
when JAWS isn't the screen reader used by most blind computer users.

I know you mention JAWS and NVDA, but they aren't identical in their
feature set or their use of key strokes. A few differences I run into
all of the time is that JAWS+down-arrow reads the rest of the document
while NVDA+a does this. The pass through keys are different as well. A
more significant example, which I mentioned above, is that NVDA and JAWS
handle screen reviewing differently.

IMHO, Orca should do what makes sense and not be tied to the key
bindings used by another screen reader. Of course, where there's a
growing consensus, Orca should use that if there's no reason not to.

On 05/10/2014 10:38 PM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

Hi Bhavya.

On 05/10/2014 05:15 PM, Bhavya shah wrote:


I am currently a Windows user wanting to witch to Linux.
Also, according to me most Linux users must be ex Windows users.
Therefore I request you to alter the keyboard shortcuts of Orca just
like the keyboard shortcuts of JAWS or NVDA. I find the JAWS/NVDA
commands more fficient and quick.
Please inform me about your views and opinions.
I am ready to provide a list of shortcuts of JAWS or NVDA if Google
doesn't turn it up. Also NVDA is open source so you can just pick up
some source code or something.
Please tell me if you are willing or interested.


This question periodically comes up on the Orca list. In the past, the
conclusion has been that when it makes sense for the keybindings to be
the same, we do so. Examples include the keys for web navigation.

The problem, however, is that Orca is not a JAWS clone or an NVDA clone.
There are commands in Orca that don't exist in JAWS or NVDA and vice
versa. And GNOME is not a Windows clone -- heck, it's even been accused
of trying to imitate Apple <grins>. So I don't think it is as simple as
just changing the shortcuts as you request.

Orca does, however, make it possible for you to rebind any keybindings
you want to whatever you want. So you could fix this problem for
yourself if all you yourself need is JAWS/NVDA-like shortcuts.

Having said all that, I am CCing the Orca list so the community can
chime in.

Take care.
--joanie

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--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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