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Re: [orca-list] Do we need "accessible" Gnu/Linux distros anymore? 13.04 edition! was Re: ubuntu 13.04

Vinux does not make users think GNU/Linux is just like the proprietary OS they've been using. However, like Ubuntu, Vinux is trying to make that transition to Linux on the desktop as easy as possible. Linux isn't going to be a successful player on the desktop if this isn't done. The same applies to the blind as does the sighted.
Vinux does not create users that can't solve problems on their own because Vinux does not do everything for the user. Vinux does make for a better out of the box experience for the blind Linux user but there's still plenty for a user to go do and customize. Vinux has a very helpful, open and friendly support list, but this is one of Vinux's strengths and not a weakness. I can think of three or more Linux users who got introduced to Linux through Vinux and are now using other distributions and contributing to Ubuntu's and other distros accessibility. They might not have done this if Vinux and other similar distributions hadn't made it easier for them to take that first step.
I can't think of a single developer who is contributing to Vinux who isn't also contributing to Ubuntu. In fact, Vinux gives an opportunity for accessibility solutions to be implemented and tested out before moving them upstream into Ubuntu.
The upcoming Vinux 4 is based on Ubuntu 12.04, which is a current LTS, so they aren't behind at all.
There are plenty of distributions which are not shipped on laptops. I don't think most distributions consider that the only indicator of success or whether a distribution is worthwhile or not.
I've never seen those questions asked, although people have asked how to run Windows programs in Linux with WINE or inside a VM, which is a perfectly legitimate question. I've seen people ask about the start menu, but this is because they're thinking of Gnome 2 and not Windows. Again, this has nothing to do with blindness since a lot of sighted users missed Gnome 2 as well.
I can certainly understand your decision not to use Vinux yourself, and I can relate to the opinion that distributions created with the blind in mind aren't needed and have some downsides which need to be kept in mind, but I'm not sure why you feel compelled to get on a stage and rant about this so frequently. Just as you can make up your own mind and have your own opinions, so can others.
Oh, and if you want people to read your pervasive prose, Id suggest not shouting. It's bad list etiquette and it makes your messages painful to read. 



On 04/28/2013 10:40 AM, Bill Dengler(arch Gnu/Linux) wrote:

Here we go again...

VINUX MAKES PEOPLE THINK THAT GNU/LINUX IS JUST LIKE THE PROPRIETARY,
SEVERAL HUNDRED DOLLAR OS THEY LEFT
VINUX CREATES USERS THAT DON'T KNOW HOW TO SOLVE PROBLEMS BY DOING,
BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS DONE FOR THEM.
IT IS NOT LIKE THEY HAVE DIRECTIONS TO FOLLOW, WHY DO THAT? THAT IS
**********WAY*********** TOO COMPLICATED! LET'S JUST DUMB IT DOWN AND
WHEN THEY UPDATE THEIR SYSTEM AND STUFF BREAKS, YOU INCOURAGE USERS TO
JUST GO COMPLAIN ON THE LIST AS OPPOSED TO AT LEAST ATTEMPTING TO FIX
THE PROBLEM FIRST AND GIVING A LIST OF THINGS THEY TRIED INSTEAD OF
"IT'S BROKEN! HELP ME!"
DEVELOPERS THAT COULD BE MAKING UBUNTU A11Y BETTER GO TO VINUX WHICH
HIRTS THE UBUNTU A11Y PROJECTS.
DID I SAY VINUX IS OUT OF DATE? WHEN I SAY OUT OF DATE, I MEAN SEVERAL
RELEASES OUT OF DATE. NOW THEY ARE TWO RELEASES BEHIND!!! THAT IS AN
ENTIRE YEAR OF DEVELOPMENT!
NO GNU/LINUX LAPTOP INCLUDES VINUX OUT OF THE BOX, IT IS UBUNTU, FEDORA,
DEBIAN, OR ARCH. SOMETIMES, AND I MEAN SOMETIMES, GENTOO, BUT NEVER,
EVER HAVE I COME ACROSS VINUX.
VINUX INCOURAGES MESSAGES ON THE LIST LIKE "HOW DO I MAKE JAWS WORK WITH
MY VINUX"? OR "HOW DO I GET MY START MENU BACK SINCE THIS IS JUST LIKE
WINDOWS?"
On 04/28/13 11:18, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

Vinux is not overly simplified. I'm not sure what that even means
since you're basically just running Ubuntu 12.04 with some
configuration done for you and some things working out of the box and
some inaccessible applications replaced by accessible ones and so on,
but it doesn't change the fact that you're still running Ubuntu.

Just because you have users who need help running commands in the
terminal has nothing to do with how overly simplified Vinux is. I see
this same kind of struggle with users of Windows and the iPhone. Just
because a user struggles with something doesn't mean the OS or the
application is overly simplified. I don't think Linux is only for
those who can master the command line anymore.

Of course Vinux isn't needed. It's never been needed. The world is
full of distros customized for different users though. Just because
someone wants to take advantage of a distro where some of the setup,
configuration and installations have been done for them doesn't mean
it's needed but it also doesn't mean it isn't worth while.

I feel sorry for those people on different lists who've reached out to
you for help only to be met with such disdain. You obviously have a
lot to offer. I know you've also asked for help on these lists and
you've received it without being talked down to or treated with the
same disdain you've shown to those who don't have your level of skills
or experience.

On 04/27/2013 10:06 PM, Bill Dengler(arch Gnu/Linux) wrote:

Vinux is oversimplified to the point that users write me off list and
say that a message with commands for them to paste into a terminal
window is "overly complicated".
I know I'm bringing back the old "do we need accessible Gnu/Linux
distros anymore" thread, but with the release of 13.04, we don't.
Libreoffice reads, unity reads, if you don't like it switch to Gnome, if
you don't like Ubuntu's Gnome switch to Arch or Debian or Fedora or Open
Suse or whatever, if you think those distros have "overly complicated"
install processes then deal with Ubuntu's modified and partially out of
date Gnome or Unity.
Bill
On 04/27/13 22:20, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

I agree with you that there are accessibility issues with Ubuntu
13.04, but I don't think the lack of menus for Accessories, Graphics,
Sounds and so on is an accessibility issue. It's not like sighted
users have access to those menus but blind users don't. It may be
something you don't like with Unity, but it's not an accessibility
issue. BTW, in Vinux there's an indicator which gives you the same
menu structure you're talking about. Maybe this indicator would do the
same thing in Ubuntu 13.04.

On 04/27/2013 07:23 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

Hi
since there are some accessibility issues in ubuntu13.04 with unity
for
example there are no menus such as accessories, graphics and sounds
and
others... I went into a terminal and
sudo apt-get install gnome-shell
sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback

but orca is not speaking in gnome. the desktop speaks and also hitting
alt+f2 won't run orca or it seems not to do so. I also used the fedora
accessibility guide and typed this into a terminal.

GSETTINGS_BACKEND=dconf gsettings set
org.gnome.desktop.a11y.applications screen-reader-enabled true'
Debian-gdm || true

maybe I'm missing something or I entered something in wrong? I'm going
to erase the ubuntu13.04 vm and try again from a fresh install maybe
some packages were not installed correctly so gnome will talk. also is
xfce or lxde accessible yet? if so I would prefer to use one of
those in
ubuntu13.04.

josh
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--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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