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Re: [orca-list] FW: Trying Quantal Quetsal Alpha 3

It occurs to me that too much standardization (however much you may think
that is) can take much of the freedom out of free software.  Closed source
may not be the issue, but narrowing too much the the space within which to
change source code very well could be.  Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but
it looks to me as if a high level of standardization will give a great deal
of power to a single entity or group, and the rest of us will be left mostly
out in the cold void of space unless we go along with that entity's changing
notions, accessibility usually dragging behind.  (I'll have to do it when I
move to Fedora 17 and a new box, but I'm sure not looking forward to
relearning gnome, as it seems I must.)

Maybe it would be better for a dozen new screen readers to develop, each
especially suited for a particular application or group of applications,
than to try to get one screen reader to work with everything, which I
suspect is difficult or impossible.  Be clear that this is not a comment on
Orca itself, and especially not on the great amount of work that has gone
into it and continues to.  It's a tentative comment on the nature of the
software beast.  I welcome any thoughts on that.

Al  

-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list-bounces gnome org [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On
Behalf Of Alex Midence
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 4:58 PM
To: orca-list gnome org
Subject: [orca-list] FW: Trying Quantal Quetsal Alpha 3



-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Midence [mailto:alex midence gmail com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 3:56 PM
To: 'Andy B.'
Subject: RE: [orca-list] Trying Quantal Quetsal Alpha 3

Why would everything have to be closed source?  Why would concentrating on
four or five libraries and desktops instead of the myriads and myriads out
there so that they can be made accessible to everyone who would want to use
them cause people to stop letting you get your hands on the source code?

Alex M


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy B. [mailto:sonfire11 gmail com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 11:03 AM
To: 'Alex Midence'
Subject: RE: [orca-list] Trying Quantal Quetsal Alpha 3

Then everything would start to be closed source.


-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list-bounces gnome org [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On
Behalf Of Alex Midence
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 9:32 AM
To: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Trying Quantal Quetsal Alpha 3

Only trouble with all that diversity everyone in Linuxland loves so dearly
is that it makes accessibility problematic.  The overwhelming majority of
Linux graphical environments are not accessible.  Here's a list for you to
sink your teeth into:

IceWm
Fluxbox
XFCE (sorry but noone seems to be able to get it to work) FvWM Sawfish Sugar
CDE (common in Unix proper environments) Enlightenment Openbox Razor QT
Étoilé Unity 3d (let's not forget that one)

Here's a list of usably accessible desktop environments just so you can
compare:

Gnome
Unity 2d (technically a subsystem of Gnome but, what the heck?) LXDE (only
in Knopix Adrienne)

Now, here's a list of partially or allegedly accessible environments just to
drive the point home even more:

KDE (you can use it as long as you don't need to enter text anywhere) XFCE
(rumor has it it's usable but has gaps and setting it up to work seems to be
an unsolved mystery for most of us)

These are some pretty grim discrepancies here especially when you consider
this list of fully accessible commercial one choice environments which get
so maligned in the free software world:

Windows:  More screen readers than you can shake a stick at and very
productively accessible for most tasks.

Mac:  Built in screen reader which gives comparable accessibility on all
devices that run Apple OS variants such as iPhone, iPad, iPod iTouch ETC.
You can litterally walk up to any of them and turn this thing on and use it.
Even right at the store.

So, there are times, and I know this is an unpopular sentiment around these
parts, there are times, I say, when I wish there wasn't quite so much choice
of interface available in Linux.  This would centralize things a bit and
make it a more realistically attainable goal for you to be able to walk up
to any Linux computer and get to work on it because its interface, whatever
it may be, will be accessible to you.

Regards,
Alex M


On 8/1/12, Jason White <jason jasonjgw net> wrote:

Thomas Ward <thomasward1978 gmail com> wrote:


Yes, I know. However, I was merely pointing out that the apps menu is 
still there in Gnome-shell its just not as easy to get to as it was 
in earlier versions of Gnome. Although, I agree with you its often 
easier just to type the name of an application into the Dash and have 
it locate the launcher in question. This seems to be a fairly common 
design feature of modern graphical user interfaces as typing the name 
of an app in the start screen on Windows 8 will do the same thing.


Based on what I have read, the influences on Gnome 3 come from a 
review of the user interface literature and from developments in 
mobile devices, especially touch-screen interfaces. The same 
influences appear to be shaping the design of other desktop 
environments and operating systems, but by no means all of them.

Its definitely not unusual at all. However, there lies the true power 
of open source software. With Linux a person can technically pick the 
user interface he or she likes, use the applications they like, and 
can have absolute control over the OS where with Mac OS and Windows 
what you see is what you get.


Yes, exactly. Also, each of those alternatives will survive and thrive 
for as long as there are people with sufficient interest and resources 
to maintain and improve the software.

This is very different from a situation in which a single vendor's 
business and technical decisions determine what is and is not 
available in future releases.

I think diversity of interfaces is desirable and inevitable in the 
free and open-source software world. I would argue that one can't have 
freedom without creating the conditions for diversity to arise, given 
inevitable divergences of needs and preferences, and human creativity.
The idea that there will ever be only one user interface, desktop 
environment, etc., is as unrealistic as it is unwelcome.

Accessibility needs to be designed to work well amid this diversity. I 
think the widespread acceptance of AT-SPI 2 and its D-Bus APIs (Gnome, 
KDE, XFCE, Unity etc.) helps in that process. This really is 
unprecedented. Meanwhile, the underlying textual environment inherited 
from the UNIX tradition continues to develop, and there are good 
access tools for working with it. Then there are environments such as 
Emacs and Chromium that have their own access tools (e.g., Emacspeak 
and Chromevox, respectively). With these tools it's possible to 
provide interfaces that would be much harder to achieve with a screen 
reader, because you have access to the internals of the application 
and you're creating a special-purpose tool rather than a generalized 
assistive technology.

Thus again there are different solutions on offer and that's 
ultimately good as well as inevitable.

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out 
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to
help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp



_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out how to
help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
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