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Re: [orca-list] BREAKING NEWS: UBUNTU SCRAPPING GNOME IN VERSION 11.04!

On 28/10/10 20:49, hackingKK wrote:

This could be a serious concern depending on how we look at it.
Lets look at some aspects of accessibility and the parameters that define good accessibility along with digital freedom. 
Firstly, its all about getting things done.
Today Gnome does all the work for me.
It "just works " so I don't care what is going to or not going to be default. If Ubuntu 11.04 is changing their default desktop to Unity, let them do it by all means. I would just do a sudo apt-get install gnome-desktop or what ever and I am on my way.
One question though, how would you get to that point if the desktop you get by default were not accessible?
Secondly, Why are we so concerned about Ubuntu afterall when its about Orca and the desktop with which it absolutely perfectly works? Ah, may be due to some crutial facts like a totally blind person can have an accessible installer? Perhaps Fedora or debian guys can be poked to make their installers accessible as well!
Both of these, as well as other distributions like archlinux, can be installed independently. Admittedly some of them need more work than others to get an installed system going. 
And lastly, if Unity is under GPL, I would not have any issues at all.
Infact GPL is also one kind of copyright that says all things need to be free "as in freedom " 
So some one has to hold the copy right.
There is a slight exception to this. Even if something is released under GPL, the copyright holder still has the right to do what they want with the software as it is their property. So in this case it means canonical could make a free GPL version and a separate commercial version, where the commercial version could contain enhancements not found in the free version or allow those who purchase a license to use the software under other terms. Before people say that no company would do this, I believe Trolltech did follow this route with a GPL or commercial license option on QT, I am fairly sure there have been other examples as well. This puts outside contributors at a disadvantage as they can only use it according to the GPL or pay money for the commercial license (which still may not give all the rights the copyright holder possesses).
This is one of the reasons a foundation can help, it makes sure that all contributors have the same freedoms. Interestingly I have just checked the copyright notice on orca, its not with the gnome foundation which I would have expected, its a combination of Sun Micro Systems and Joannie. 

Michael Whapples

And by the way, I wonder how much ready is orca for gnome 3?
Are we really going to use it by the time Ubuntu 11.04 comes out (for those like me who use Vinux as its varient?) If not then we will still be at the current latest gnome in the 2.* series. And if Unity is going to be free software (as in freedom ) then its perfectly ok to contribute to it. Well as Tony said, we will have to wait and watch as to what canonical does. 
In any case, we still have vinux handy and a lot can be done with gnome.

Happy hacking.
Krishnakant.


On Thursday 28 October 2010 09:00 PM, Michael Whapples wrote:it

Hello,
This is quite interesting to me, it raises a number of issues which relate to some of the topics covered in one of my postgraduate course modules, how businesses interact and use open source software. I may refer to a few papers on the subject, sorry if they aren't publically viewable, I'll try and give enough detail that my view makes sense on its own. You may want to look at http://scholar.google.com to find the papers or find other relevant ones.
Firstly the thing about ubuntu having the copyright. Even if Ubuntu were to make unity GPL, copyright is still needed to be considered. By assigning it all to canonical makes it easier, only one organisation needs to defend it should there be any dispute, should license terms need to be changed then only one organisation needs to approve the changes, etc. Unfortunately this does give the copyright holder a privileged position (they may do anything with what they own the copyright to, even if it conflicts with the license they make it available to the public) which can cause problems.
I haven't worked out the business model of canonical, mainly because I haven't given them much time as I am not interested by their products, but from what I understand they probably fall into the category of sponsored open source or may be professional open source [1]. In the case of unity you are handing copyright and all those privileges which go with copyright to a commercial company if you do accessibility work on unity. This certainly can feel unfair, you donate for free some work to a commercial company who may make money from that contribution but you may not have the same right to use what they give.
If we now look at gnome, we are dealing with a foundation based open source system. I have seen a paper by Yamakami [2] which discusses some of the advantages of foundation based open source. The main points are that the foundation is not making a commercial product, but rather creates an environment where other organisations may donate and take code, and they do with gnome (Sun Micro Systems donated work on orca in the past and they used gnome software in open solaris, possibly oracle still use gnome in solaris but I lost interest when they abandoned opensolaris). The advantage is that all are more equal in this situation and the foundation can try and ensure that nobody will get an unfair advantage.
So yes we all should consider what implications there are and make contributions in the direction we feel most comfortable. I imagine a number of people may feel less comfortable with canonical, but I guess they probably have given some thought to the decision and so are prepared to take any consequences of it, which may include having to do more themselves.
For those of us as users, I only briefly looked at ubuntu, and moved away from it fairly soon after looking at it. You can get a very good accessible linux system without using ubuntu and other distributions have a more community based approach. So if ubuntu's accessibility goes to pot with their recent move then you do have alternatives. 

Just my views.

Michael Whapples
[1] "The business of open source", Watson, R., Boudreau, M.C., York, P., Communication of the ACM Volume 51, Number 4, PP.41-46 (2008). [2] http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5568703#Body (Sorry I was feeling a little lazy, full reference details on page the link leads to). 

On -10/01/37 20:59, Anthony Sales wrote:
I agree that this is a serious concern. I always thought that at some point that Ubuntu would become a commercial product, after all it's good enough and having a none GPL desktop manager like Unity would mean they could stick to the original promise of Ubuntu always being free - but no-one else would then be able to use, modify or distribute anything with the Unity desktop. So for me that would mean I couldn't base Vinux on Ubuntu - unless I remove the Unity desktop (which I might have done anyway) or they allow people to distribute it - in which case there would be no point copyrighting it. Presumably the argument from Ubuntu would be that the Unity desktop is what differenciates them from other distros and letting people modify it may harm their brand - the same reason you can't use their logos or name etc. I don't think this move would be morally wrong, and commercially it makes sense - they could then compete with Apple and Windows on portable devices, netbooks and pda's etc. This would be a return on Shuttleworth's investment and it would presumably massively boost the number of Linux users around the world. But from an accessibility point of view this means we will now be trying to keep up with a multi-touch (3D?) interface, or trying to turn it off etc. This may just be an over-reaction - because maybe Canonical's intentions are benign and Luke Yelvich has been seconded into the Unity team specially to get the accessibility sorted, so it may have a happy ending - but I always feel where money is involved bad things tend to happen. Maybe I am just cynical, Ubuntu has done a massive amount to boost the credibility of Linux as a desktop distro and we should turn or backs on them before we know the actual implications if any for accessibility and the licences etc. 

drbongo
________________________________________
From: orca-list-bounces gnome org [orca-list-bounces gnome org] On Behalf Of Bryen M. Yunashko [suserocks bryen com] 
Sent: 28 October 2010 10:39
To: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] BREAKING NEWS: UBUNTU SCRAPPING GNOME IN VERSION 11.04! 

I respect any distro's right to choose their direction, and certainly
Ubuntu has done the same.

What concerns me about Canonical's decision to go with Unity is that
they are requesting that any contributions to Unity development be given 
the copyrights to Canonical.  To say that this is a concern is an
undertatement for me, as people need to understand that if they wish to
contribute to accessibility and maintain freedom and copyrights, it
needs to be done directly through GNOME accessibility for which then
Ubuntu can "use" the software.  But if you contribute to Unity for
accessibility instead, then your work becomes the property of Canonical. 

Bryen

On Thu, 2010-10-28 at 01:30 -0700, Rob Lambert wrote:

This comes from Linux for Devices:

The "Unity" user interface that debuted in Ubuntu 10.10's Netbook
Edition will be standard on the next version of the Ubuntu Desktop
Edition as well. Ubuntu Desktop 11.04 will replace the Linux
distribution's default GNOME desktop environment in favor of the
multitouch-enabled Unity interface, says Ubuntu sponsor Canonical.

Making the announcement at a keynote Oct. 25 at Ubuntu Developer
Summit in Orlando, Fla., Mark Shuttleworth, Canonical’s founder, said
Ubuntu Desktop 11.04 will swap out the GNOME user interface in favor
of the Unity interface that is now available on the Ubuntu Netbook
Edition (UNE).

"We conceived some work a time ago focused on netbooks that we want to
bring to desktops," Shuttleworth said.

Canonical introduced Unity, the multitouch interface, this month with
Ubuntu 10.10 ("Maverick Meerkat") UNE. Unity gives users 3D graphics
support and better touchscreen enablement. The desktop/laptop version
of Ubuntu 10.10 still has the long-standing GNOME 2.2 interface by
default.






GNOME Shell is the latest interface being developed for GNOME 3.0. It
was delayed to spring 2011 because it wasn't ready. With Canonical
shifting to Unity, GNOME Shell will not be the default when completed.
GNOME would continue to be used as Unity's framework; it’s just the
shell that wouldn't be visible, said Shuttleworth.

"Unity is a shell for GNOME even if it isn't GNOME Shell. We're
committed to the principles and values of GNOME," said Shuttleworth.

Canonical has been maintaining two default user interfaces for Ubuntu
for a while now. The desktop distribution has the familiar tiled
interface reminiscent of Windows, while UNE, formerly called the
Netbook Remix, has a more streamlined look.

This shift consolidates the operating system squarely behind one
default interface instead of maintaining two different looks. It will
likely be more attractive for PC manufacturers considering selling
Ubuntu desktops and laptops.

Dell supports this shift, Canonical said. Other OEM manufacturers have
expressed interest in Ubuntu, said Canonical, and supporting a single
user interface across all hardware platforms is a more attractive
option.

The Unity interface has a new application dock and launch bar,
multitouch use of applications, and less clutter of the screen space.
It will accept input via screen hand, mouse, and trackpad. Unity will
be the default desktop experience for "users that have the appropriate
software and hardware," Shuttleworth said.

Users interested in Unity will need hardware that is modern enough to
handle 3D-based graphics. Users running Ubuntu on older machines will
still have to switch to the GNOME interface with its 2D graphics.






The "fairly substantial shift" in the interface "is a significant,
risky step. It will throw people's confidence," said Shuttleworth
during the keynote. He said it was a necessary move because the
current iteration of the GNOME shell did not match Canonical’s vision
of how applications should be displayed on Ubuntu Desktop.

The team behind GNOME had made some technical decisions in how it used
GL graphics and 3D that "we found it difficult aligning to,"
Shuttleworth said. "We took a divergent view on some key design issues
-- where the application should appear, how one searches for
applications and how the applications should be presented -- they
weren't embraced by the designs in the GNOME shell," he said.

While the announcement came as a surprise to programmers and users,
the prevailing attitude appeared to be wait-and-see, as reflected by
an on-going poll on Ubuntu Forums. Asking "GNOME Shell or Unity?"
GNOME Shell was in the lead, with 37 percent. It was not a decisive
lead, as Unity was preferred by 29 percent, and 27 percent said,
"Anything that works."

While some users on various online forums worried about yet another
competitor for GNOME, others pointed out that Linux is infinitely
customizable and it's just a matter of "apt-get install" to slap on a
new interface. There seemed to be a general consensus that GNOME
looked outdated compared to KDE and Xfce, which are other popular
interfaces. Unity was more modern, in comparison.

In the Ubuntu Forums poll, 6 percent claimed they didn’t use GNOME
anyway. Some users pointed out that Canonical's goal has always been
about delivering a simple and easy to use interface for Linux.

"When GNOME served that purpose, Canonical used it," posted a user on
Ubuntu Forums. "When GNOME stops serving that purpose as well as Unity
or any other desktop does, the default desktop should be whatever
serves that overall purpose: Simplicity and ease of use."

Ubuntu has a lot of work to do around windows management on Unity
before it's ready for the desktop, said Shuttleworth. On the netbook,
there is only one application in the foreground at a time, but that is
not the case on a desktop. Users can set up multiple screens and be
able to see all the contents at the same time.

For desktop and laptop users, the new Ubuntu Unity will default
multiple windows and a multi-foreground interface. For netbook users,
Unity will continue to default to a single window with a single
foreground application.

Availability

Unity is expected with the next release of Ubuntu 11.04 desktop, or
"Natty Narwhal," in April 2011.

An Oct. 14 Canonical blog by Gerry Carr on Unity and its "uTouch"
multitouch technology, with video demonstrations, may be found here.


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_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html 
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines 
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp




_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html 
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines 
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
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