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Re: [orca-list] Topicality...again.

Hi All:
From a positive point of view, I believe what we're seeing is an uptick in the number of Orca users because Orca and GNOME accessibility are "for real" and more and more users are having very positive success with it. This is good!
With that comes a downside where we end up getting people with a lack of netiquette and with no clue how to use things like web search tools. They lack self-sufficiency and thus will ask any question anywhere someone might provide an answer, even if the question is off topic.
If this 'uptick' conjecture is accurate, then no matter how many times we discuss what's on or off topic, we're bound to get new users who will come in to the list and pepper it with tons of questions. These kinds of users are not going to read the documentation or any suggestions for how to behave properly. They are going to just blast away with their questions. 

As someone who gets a lot of e-mail, I agree it is annoying as hell.
Note also that their social ignorance in these areas is something I believe we've all had at some point in our lives - I know for sure that I've been 'that guy' at one point or another. As open source community members, I think it is our responsibility to guide them. You never know - users who are ignorant now might end up becoming helpful contributors in the future, and their desire to do so might hinge upon how they are treated here.
So, as regular Orca list members, let's try to remember amongst ourselves what is on/off topic. If someone posts a message that is off topic, let's try to take the time to point them to the mailing list or URL they should go to to ask their question. In addition, if the question is way off topic, we should avoid answering it with anything except a suggestion to take it elsewhere. Answering or even acknowledging questions way off topic is like feeding your dog scraps from the dinner table - do it just once and the pooch will come back for more forever.
Having said all that, if we end up with someone who is going to continue posting off topic things to the list after they've been reminded of proper social behavior, I will start placing individuals on the list of folks who need to have their messages moderated. 

Will
PS - so, here's some examples, which we probably should try to get into the Orca FAQ (can someone help me update it, please?), which is also something we can feel free to point people to: 

Q: Does Vinux work on my netbook?
A: Hi, this the Orca list. You should ask Vinux-related questions at http://vinux.org.uk/ 

Q: When will Skype be accessible?
A: Hi, this the Orca list. You should ask Skype related questions at http://www.skype.com/. You might also consider reading the Orca home page - http://live.gnome.org/Orca where the second heading is "Does Orca work with Skype?" 

Q: Does Orca work with KDE?
A: Orca currently requires the AT-SPI infrastructure, which is not supported by KDE at this point in time. Work is underway, however, and you should track the accessibility of KDE on the kde-accessibility mailing list: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-accessibility 

Q: How do I get IBMTTS/TTSSYNTH/VOXIN/etc working?
A: It has been known to work, but you need to get the proper support from the people from whom you purchased the product. 

Q: How do I install NVDA?
A: This list is for discussing Orca and how to use it on the GNOME desktop. NVDA is for Windows. For NVDA questions, you should go to http://www.nvda-project.org/. 

Q: Is the sky blue?
A: <<<hit the delete button - it's not even worthy of the time to craft a response>>>
Q: Open Source Software forever! Die Windows die! Go to hell capitalist pigs! A: <<<hit the delete button - it's not even worthy of the time to craft a response>>>
Q: My name is Paul the Pontificator and I want to wax poetic about my views of what a perfect world would be. First of all, I want voice recognition software at the post office and the checkout lines at the supermarket. Second of all, when are we going to have cars that drive themselves and how come you guys are wasting your time developing Okra when you could be developing this car? C) How come you are not lowering the price of refreshable braille displays - if they can put a man on the moon, you should be able to give me a display for the price of a pack of gum!!! 4) IV, this is a matter of grave social importance and I'm starting a writing campaign to my congressman and blah blah blah I like to talk but I never blah blah blah do anything except blah blah blah talk blah blah and WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS and use many exclamation! points! because what I talk about is VERY! IMPORTANT!!!. A: <<<hit the delete button - it's not even worthy of the time to craft a response>>> 

On Mar 22, 2009, at 3:22 PM, nolan wrote:


My gods. It's like we beat this dead horse every few weeks these days.

I don't care about Vinux. If I did, I'd join the Vinux list.
I don't care about VMs and their associated challenges. If I did, I'd join that list.
I DO care about Orca,accessibility issues involving it and ways to accomplish tasks with it more easily.
It does not become OK to start posting off-topic messages here a few weeks after people have asked it to stop.
It does not become OK to post off-topic just because a message is noted as such.
It does not become OK to ask any generic question and make it on topic because you're running Orca. That makes about as much sense as posting X or GNOME questions to a BASH list because I'm using it as my shell. "How do I do X accessibly with Orca?" is a different matter, but not everything that one is uncertain about is accessibility or blindness-related.
It is not OK to expect those of us frustrated by off-topic messages to just delete them and move on. Universalize that principle and community loses meaning, with everyone posting whatever they want anywhere.
It is not OK to post off-topic and invite responses off-list. If the initial post is OT, and if there is a request for keeping the list on topic, saying "this is off-topic, so please respond off-list" demonstrates to me that the principle of the list is being knowingly disrespected.
Now, I'm not trying to be the topic fascist here. I think that strictly sticking with a topic and allowing no divergence is as bad as diverging all the time. I don't believe people should quake in fear or concernn that any given post is on or off-topic for a list.
But, come on. This is not the vinux list, and there IS one. I looked this morning. If you're interested in vinux vm or whatever, take your questions there. If you're interested in knowing about it, subscribe. But we've had at least half a dozen messages about it in the last day alone. Sure, that's not many, but if we don't react, we tell any new users "this is a generic linux community, ask all your questions here, don't seek out your distribution's channels that are specifically set up for helping you and create another blind community walled garden." Seriously, at least from the Ubuntu perspective, I read planet.ubuntu.com and they do a ton of work helping forum newbies and trying to create a nurturing and supportive environment.
This is not the place for that.. Please respect the efforts of the distributions by taking generic requests there, and please respect the requests that have been made here several times and let us continue discussing issues that are related to Orca.
Thanks. Hopefully I'm not making this post again in another month or two because it has been decided that it's been a month, therefore it's OK to start going off-topic again. 

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