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Re: [orca-list] pidgin 2.6.4 and orca

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I may have brought this up before but not sure.  When bringing up
these accessibility issues to upstream developers, what is the best
thing to tell them to get them headed in the right direction?  What I
mean is you can go up to someone and suggest they make their
application "more accessible" and you might try and explain what Orca
does but really, what facts can we give them to really get them
going.  How does an app developer properly talk to at-spi for example?
I think we have to be able to give them pointers that they can do to
their apps to ensure they will be compatible with the accessibility
infrastructure.  I know in MS Windows 80% of the problems can go away
if they would simply use "standard controls" but is that merely what
gnome developers need to do? I gues what I don't even understand
really, is how gnome apps relate to at-spi and friends.  From what
I've seen over the past year or so is the accessibility framework
being what seems like multiple layers of low-level code and if one can
hook in the right places a program will talk.  This might be an
over-simplified or even an incorrect perception but whatever it is,
hopefully the requirements for good accessibility can be presented in
a way that any developer could pick up and run with them and
incorporate them into the application.
 
On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 03:31:07PM -0600, Ariel Rios wrote:

This is also important to be able to show the different companies that
do GNOME that A11y is an area where a lot of work needs to be done so
they keep or restart funding more work for it.

ariel

2009/12/1 Willie Walker <William Walker sun com>:


You need to be part of the movement to help bring about the cultural shift
for mainstream developers to make accessibility part of their every day
design and development practices. ÂUntil we see a cultural shift happen, we
will remain stuck in the unscalable solution of "Joanie and Willie will fix
it."

So, let the product teams know that you have difficulty accessing their user
interfaces. These are all "teachable moments" for the development teams.
Many of them have no clue whatsoever. Let them know specifically what is not
working, what you're trying to do, what you expect to happen, what could be
better. Follow the three C's: clear, concise, and constructive.

Will

Joanmarie Diggs wrote:


Hi Will, Zack.

On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 09:44 -0500, Willie Walker wrote:


I haven't had a chance to test pidgin 2.6.4. ÂUnlike the stock market,
past performance from the pidgin team is usually a good indicator of future
performance, which means they are likely to break accessibility when they
update the user interface. ;-)


Heheh. In this case, having just built pidgin 2.6.4 in OpenSolaris, it
looks like they may have changed something that we were counting on
w.r.t. the hierarchy and/or events which get emitted. Using Accerciser,
I'm seeing appropriate events and accessible objects. In light of
this...

Zack, I'd ask that you'd hold off on the following:


Can you please log a bug with the Pidgin project and CC me? ÂI can
certainly do it, but I think the message is much more powerful if it comes
from an end user.

http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/TipsForBugReports


At least until further triage indicates that they really did break
something.

What is helpful when stuff like the following is observed:


Zachary Kline wrote:


Hi All,
I made the rather unpleasant discovery today that ArchLinux upgrading
pidgin to 2.6.4 broke the orca script for it completely. ÂI have orca
2.28.1 at the moment from the arch repository.


is to file a bug against Orca in GNOME's bugzilla. That ensures it
remains on our radar. I've gone ahead and filed one for you:
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603520

The other thing which would be helpful -- phenomenal, even -- is some
community help with bug triage. For instance, if the bug is "Orca no
longer speaks incoming chat messages in Pidgin" (which is what I'm
seeing with 2.6.4), Accerciser's event monitor and/or Orca's debug
output could be used to see if those messages appear in the form of
text-changed events. If they are (and it seems that they are), then it's
likely an Orca bug. If they are not, then it's likely a Pidgin bug.

Where this comes in handy, at least for me, is when a little spare time
presents itself. Today, I took a lunch break from my day job and decided
to look at this issue. The time spent doing the triage, filing the bug
against Orca, and composing this message is about the same amount of
time I suspect it would've taken me to fix a problem of this nature.
Unfortunately, my lunch break is now over, so I didn't actually get to
working on the fix.

The other thing that would come in handy is more specific details about
what has broken. When I saw "broke the orca script for it completely" I
was expecting some serious and disturbing accessibility flaw. In my
testing thus far, that has not proven to be the case. If you're seeing
additional problems with the latest version of Pidgin, please add them
to the above Orca bug.


I wonder if this sort of breakage is reason enough to run orca from the
source repository?


That wouldn't help you with this particular bug -- at least not yet --
because we didn't know about this particular bug. Once we've addressed
this bug, using git master would be the way to get the fix immediately.
Otherwise, it should wind up in the next release of 2.28.

Thanks and take care.
--joanie



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Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
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Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org


_______________________________________________
Orca-list mailing list
Orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org

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