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Re: [orca-list] Copy, Cut and Paste feedback Orca feature request

Hi

Under Windows, when an item is selected, if the uniformly across
applications Copy and Cut shortcut keys are pressed the operation is in my
expirience always performed so I suspect monitoring the clipboard is
probably not required (I don't know for sure how this is done).

I take your point that under Gnome the copy, cut and paste are not the same
across all applications therefore unless the clipboard is monitored this can
not be performed reliably.

If it is the job of the screen reader or not, I find this facility with my
screen reader under Windows very handy saving the need to perform these
operations reliably using the menu.

Regards
Isaac 

-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list-bounces gnome org [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On
Behalf Of Steve Holmes
Sent: 23 August 2009 22:17
To: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Copy, Cut and Paste feedback Orca feature request

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Given how you just described this feature, I will would still contend it to
be a bad idea.  Let me give you one verry good reason.  What if by chance,
the particular keys in question are not assigned to cut/paste/copy or if
that particular didn't support cut/paste operations? One example is the
gnome-terminal.  it uses shift-control-v to paste and I think
shift-control-c to copy... Whenever I'm un sure,  I look in the edit menu to
find it.  I also don't feel it is the screen reader's responsibility to
support cut/paste/copy directly either.  Speech annotation is nice when an
operation is performed but even the Windows screen readers don't actually
speak when the operation was a success; they just speak because the key was
pressed.  That is no guarentee that you really cut/copied the text at all.

Now one exception  here is with Speakup on the text console; it has a
copy/paste feature that allows one to copy text from one console to another
or or simply from one point in time to another.  That comes in extremely
handy as there isn't any other simply way for a blind person to copy/paste
text in a text console without having to use GPM and a mouse.  I'm not
personally aware of any other way to do it in a linux native console.  As a
side note, that xclip package is a really cool way to copy text between
native consoles and gnome applications.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 03:08:29PM +0100, Isaac Porat wrote:

Hello Michael

The screen reader in question checks if say text is selected.  If it 
is, when you do Ctrl + c and Ctrl + x it will say 'copied' and 'Cut'
respectively.  If not it will say nothing selected.
I find it useful sometime when one jumps to edit boxes etc when the 
state is unknown or text can not be selected so one knows if copy 
occurred or not.  I don't think the clipboard is monitored as such it 
is the selection in the application itself I think.
Otherwise there is no intelligence in respect to the paste for example 
if one copies a file to the clipboard and one tries to paste it by 
mistake to a text file it will still say 'Pasted' which I still find a 
sort of confirmation that one pressed the right key but otherwise is of no

real use.

So it is the copy and Cut mainly which give if you wish meaningful 
confirmation.

Regards
Isaac

-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list-bounces gnome org [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] 
On Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: 19 August 2009 13:39
To: Orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Copy, Cut and Paste feedback Orca feature 
request

Hello,
here are some of my thoughts regarding this. I have got very used to 
orca not announcing this information, so I don't feel a great need for 
me to have it. However I can see that for some it could be useful. I 
would say though we do need to make sure it is done correctly. I can 
think of an example of a screen reader on another OS which seemed to 
speak cut, copy and paste regardless of what the action really was, I 
believe it did this because it was set to speak cut on control x, copy 
on control c and paste on control v, unless the settings file for the 
specific application said otherwise. This example is as bad, possibly 
even worse than our current situation with orca as its speech output could

actually be wrong rather than non-existent.


Now Will's suggestion of a way of monitoring the clipboard directly 
(or checking the clipboard) would be the best way as this doesn't 
depend at all on the key presses. I haven't got a clue whether this 
would be possible or not (either directly with at-spi (although Will 
doesn't think there is a
way) or through another application).

Isaac, do you have any clue as to how the screen reader you are 
thinking of does this? Does it respond to the key press and then check 
whether cut, copy or paste may have occurred or does it do it by 
monitoring the clipboard? I know that the accessibility APIs on 
different OSs do differ in the way they work, but it would indicate 
whether a satisfactory solution could be done by monitoring the most 
commonly used cut, copy and paste keys (IE. ctrl+x,
ctrl+c and ctrl+v). As an example of my thinking here, we could make a
pretty good guess that something has been copied if the user presses 
ctrl+c and there is something selected.

Michael Whapples
On -10/01/37 20:59, Isaac Porat wrote:

Hello All

The Cut, Paste and Copy feedback is a feature which I appriciate 
with my screen reader in the other OS and wonder if other people 
share the same view, I would like to suggest a similar feature in Orca.
Please find below my communication with Will which will clarify the

issue.


I am looking forward to your feedback.
Regards
Isaac

And the communication with Will...
Hi Isaac:

   

I send this to the list but received no feedback; perhaps lost 
among the discussion on text processing...
So I send this to you privately.
     

Using the list would be preferred.  I get lots of e-mail and rely 
upon others on the orca-list to help me out with answers.  I also 
prefer to have public discussions around these kinds of things.  :-)

   

A feature that I find very useful with my screen reader on that 
other operating system is feedback on Copy, Cut and Paste.
So If I try to copy something that was highlighted I press Ctrl + c 
and it will say 'copied'
If nothing is highlighted it will say 'nothing to copy' it works in 
a similar way with Cut.
With paste it will say 'pasted' and if there is nothing to paste 
from the clipboard it tells you 'nothing to paste'.
I find the above very useful indeed but as far as I can tell Orca 
does not do this.
Can I request this as a feature?
     

Right now, I'm not sure there's anything in the AT-SPI that allows 
us to know for sure that something was added to the system clipboard 
or pulled from the clipboard.  There might be some other API's that 
can help us, but I'm not sure.  I see something here, but I don't 
see a way to be notified when something is posted to or copied from 
the

clipboard:


http://www.pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gtkclipboard.html

There might be some sort of D-Bus protocol for working with the 
clipboard, but I'm not aware of it.  In addition, there seems to be 
a GUI applet
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/glipper/) for monitoring the clipboard.
This might be something that could be scripted.

In any case, if you open an enhancement request at 
http://bugzilla.gnome.org against the Orca project, we can track it.

Will



   


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Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
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es

_______________________________________________
Orca-list mailing list
Orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at 
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at 
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelin
es

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_______________________________________________
Orca-list mailing list
Orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines
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