Re: [orca-list] Compare or not compare was: Re: Page presentation

["Krishnakant Mane" <hackingkk gmail com>]

hi hermann.
actually the problem is that most valuable thing in any person's life is time.
and if at all we only have to replicate so call state of the art
technology made in that beautiful super accessible windows, then
better try serching for donations from our individual governments to
fund blind community to by a certain screen reader, the windows virus
etc.
we are a huge community it spans so many hackers like us, so many end
users and so many research schollers who admitabilly know better than
a lot of proprietory programmres not because of superior brain power
but due to the very culture of free software.
already there is no dirth of new and old ideas which are actually pritty good.
the reason we tend to asume the superiority of windows is because of
its forced or unforced popularity.
agreed orca came much later than the proprietory softwares but what's
the point in doing any comparison and just taking some thing *only
because it comes from a so call superior OS *.
talking about freedom ideology, it is this noble ideology of Dr. RMS
that we have such a rich culture thriving around the technology and I
think we not the just except but also respect the same.
yes I completely and holehartedly agree that we must go out to the
people and make as many people free from proprietory softwares as
possible, but not at the cost of making some thing on the basis of a
proprietory software.
orca has different and superior approach in many cases and so does
gnome, and the community at large appreciates this.
My words as a freedom fighter might have hert some one and my sincear
oppologies for this.
but yes freedom is the most valuable thing and many like me feel prowd
of the technology driven by the free software culture.
as I said time and time again, it is perfect to take a good feature
from a proprietory screen reader but make the communication clear
about the fact that it is not because it was in a superior windows,
but because the feature is cool no matter where it comes from.
again, the flip side is that we have also critisized open office and
many on the list also agreed.  but it is again due to the fact that we
won't just consider oo good because it is free software but make it
good by putting good things in it.
and talking about people in general, if we don't make people aware of
"it is not just about the cost " then who else should do it?
also many  of the unix like approaches which say "make one tool that
does one thing better and perfect ", has proved to be much more
productive so instead of taking a proprietory approach to things it is
better to have the approaches which have proved to be better, and mind
you I made reference to unix which by no means is free software.
so again sorry if my words hert some proprietory software advocate,
but if a certain thing like orca approach with firefox is appreciated
by community at large, it must be appreciated that such things come
from any person in the free software culture and it in many cases
might come as a productive contradiction to windows approach.  We need
not compare every now and then.  let's have ideas about how a certain
thing would be more interractive with a blind person using screen
reader?
I seriously have no objection of knowing how a certain thing was done
in another OS but would not really except it just because "you know?
we have been doing this for ages and this is what is right.  let's
have it as a copy in orca ".  and many on the list have already agreed
to what I am stating.

I am wondering if windows was the so called superior os till date and
if they had the best in every thing and freedom is useless, why even
care of developing another screen reader.  we can script a certain
proprietory screen reader and make it even better with more and more
accessibility.
talking about costs?  I already mentioned the solution.
happy hacking.
KK


On 19/05/2008, Hermann <meinelisten onlinehome de> wrote:
> am Mo 19. Mai 2008 um 10:12:00 schrieb Krishnakant Mane
> <hackingkk gmail com>:
> > > > How do we learn if not by comparism? How can you explain and improve a
> > > > world you don't know and you even don't want to know it?
> > > > If we want to get anywhere, we must know the state of the art, and this
> > > > means to compare the goals achieved by Windows and also by Mac with
> > > > those
> > > > we want to achieve.
> > >
> > > Don't we know what is better though? If we had the choice would we take
> > > a
> > > slow browser or a fast browser? (I don't believe orca is slow with ff
> > > just
> > > when search for forms).
> > > But we have no reason to care about windows, because we can come up with
> > > things that work for us.
> > Exactly daniel, that was my point.
> > for example we can sort out the short comings from many other sources.
> >  another thread going on this list for example is talking about the
> > problems with openoffice navigation.
> > but the solutions are not coming from any windows software for that
> > matter.  the solutions were in emacs and vim.
> > so the free software community knows a lot better because firstly,
> > most of the tools come from the efords of good students schollers and
> > researchers.  take the example of latex for that matter.
> > I know there might be some cool accessibility feature in a proprietory
> > screen reader in windows.
> > the page reading feature for example is a good feature and many of us
> > even appreciated that.
> > but it is wrong to implement certain things just because that's the
> > way it is done on windows.  and just because a certain screen reader
> > did it on windows, it does not become the *state-of-the-art*.
> > probably that screen reader was not developed by taking the views of
> > community.  probably those brains sitting in a highly well furnished
> > lab, never went beyond what they think is right.
> > so we in most cases won't need to care how things are done on windows.
> >  and if it occurs to any of us that a certain feature is good, we
> > don't do it because it is coming from windows based proprietory screen
> > readers, but do it because it was good any ways.
>
> And how do you know what's good? By simply take a look around and see what
> solutions others have found. I think that Will's approach is the right one:
> What's good for the user has to be done, and it does not matter at all,
> where it comes from.
>
> > > > I completely disaggree. We have a lot of people here who come from
> > > > Windows
> > > > and they want to know Linux with Orca. It's normal that they come with
> > > > certain aspirations and expectations and perhaps are disappointed to
> > > > see
> > > > such differences, to state it newtrally.
> > We are freedom fighters not marketing people.  orca was made so that
> > blind users get freedom in accessibility on gnu/linux os with gnome
> > desktop.  why should a certain thing be done for those "disappointed "
> > people just because they came from windows and should be given same
> > kind of accessibility which in many cases is absolutely rubbish.
>
> Apology, but that's an arrogant view. Who's that "we"? Who's to define what
> "we" have to do or not? And please, stay away from such idiological terms
> like "freedom fighters".
> We do all this accessibility development, because it is urgently necessary
> for us, and not for the sake of any idiological commitments.
>
> > > > So we have to face their questions, suggestions and their comparism, if
> > > > we
> > > > are really willing to convince them of the advantages of Linux.
> >
> > > Yes, but we won't just do things like windows for that reason.
> > and why should we pay the cost of doing some things like windows just
> > to convince some one to use gnulinux.  as I said above we are not here
> > to market some screen reader business and sell the product to blind
> > users.  I am not desirous of opening my jaws to let people put
> > business into my mouth.
>
> Again, an idiological and elitarian view. Why do we go to the public with
> Linux solutions? Wouldn't it be better to stay within our small, enlighted
> politically correct community, and let those silly Windows users stay happy
> with their third class and costy software?
> It's not my point of view, because I don't tend to be cynical. I want to
> convince people that there's a better solution, so we have to talk to the
> people instead of rebuffing and offending them.
> You may feel good in doing so, but I completely reject that attitude.
>
> > > For example windows I hear buffers the web pages which I would think
> > > everyone believes is worse than showing the page how it looks which orca
> > > does.
>
> "I believe" "I've heard", that's exactly the problem. Someone told you that
> Windows is a really bad OS, and you simply do believe it?
> I feel we talk a completely different language, and I would suggest that we
> open up our minds and stop behaving that autistic.
> Hermann