Re: [orca-list] miscellaneous Orca comments

[Janina Sajka <janina rednote net>]

You talk as if one has to choose one or the other. Do you not understand
that you can have both active at the same time? Do you not understand
how consoles work on Linux?

PS: My toolkit has both flathead and phillips screwdrivers, among myriad
other tools. I consider it common sense to use the most appropriate tool
for the task.


Rich Caloggero writes:
> Do you think speakup, or some other text-based screen reader, can provide 
> access to software like audacity and other music-making/recording 
> applications?  I certainly don't see it making todays gui-based music apps 
> accessible, and I don't see anyone writing text-based music apps that can 
> do what the gui-based ones can and that also work with speakup.
>
> Jaws can provide access to Cakewalk. THis is arguably not equivalent access 
> to what sighted people have (i.e. plugins don't generally work), but you 
> can do a lot with it.  I believe orca can do this too, but Jaws has a ten 
> year headstart on orca; that's many developer hours.
>
> Just my two cents -- trying to be optomistic.
> -- Rich
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janina Sajka" <janina a11y org>
> To: "Rich Caloggero" <rjc mit edu>
> Cc: <orca-list gnome org>
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 4:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [orca-list] miscellaneous Orca comments
>
>
> > Rich Caloggero writes:
> > > Janina Sajka Wrote:
> > > > But I am perplexed with the desire to recreate the console/screen
> > > > environment under a gui terminal app. What am I missing here? What
> > > > advantage does it offer? How and why is it the appropriate tool for a
> > > > particular task like vim editing, for example?
> > >
> > > For those without speakup in their kernel, it allows them to have the 
> > > best
> > > of both worlds: the GUI for tasks which require it (web browsing,
> > > recording, etc), and a terminal for everything else!
> >
> >
> > Is Speakup too expensive? What? Because I think Orca's a long way from
> > equivalent access. In fact, I'm arguing it will never catch up. I'm
> > arguing it can't, just from the nature of where it lives in the stack.
> >
> > Janina
> >
> >
> > > Am I missing something?
> > > -- Rich
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>
> > > To: "David Csercsics" <aarg shaw ca>
> > > Cc: <orca-list gnome org>
> > > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 1:33 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [orca-list] miscellaneous Orca comments
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have wondered about gnome terminal vs console. It seems to me asking
> > > > for cli, ncurses, etc access on top of an X environment is, by
> > > > definition, more complex, more latent, and more prone to problems as
> > > > compared to access directly in a console. It seems to me console
> > > > accessibility will always be more robust and less latent. I would note,
> > > > furthermore, that the advantages of using a terminal are also available
> > > > in the console environment via screen, a powerful and very accessible
> > > > environment.
> > > >
> > > > I think I understand, I certainly applaud and intend to use to the 
> > > > utmost,
> > > > orca and the gui desktop. I can't imagine better access in a complex
> > > > environment like a modern web environment or a multitrack 
> > > > recording/audio
> > > > editing application than what Orca has begun delivering.
> > > >
> > > > But I am perplexed with the desire to recreate the console/screen
> > > > environment under a gui terminal app. What am I missing here? What
> > > > advantage does it offer? How and why is it the appropriate tool for a
> > > > particular task like vim editing, for example?
> > > >
> > > > I am mindful that appropriateness to task is a meaningful criterion. One
> > > > can certainly roast marshmellows with a blow torch. But, why would one?
> > > >
> > > > Janina
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > David Csercsics writes:
> > > > > > I have noticed the same thing.  I have also had the experience you
> > > > > > describe with gvim.  I'd suggest using gedit when in Gnome.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, you can certainly do that though it is not as usable as vim as 
> > > > > far
> > > > > as functionality is concerned. I find that vim has a much better
> > > > > interface
> > > > > for a lot of things especially when it comes to coding. I can't find a
> > > > > nice equivalent for a lot of the vim functionality in gedit like folds,
> > > > > for example. Or the % keystroke. There are a bunch of other nice 
> > > > > features
> > > > > that vim has that I like as well. So while you can certainly use gedit
> > > > > it is less efficient and I'm really not up for using an inferior text
> > > > > editor when the other should work. The gnome terminal access should be 
> > > > > a
> > > > > bit better than it is. I don't know how to fix most things because it's
> > > > > not obvious to me what is broken but I'd be happy to help work on it if
> > > > > somebody wants to help figure out where the problems are. Ideally I'd
> > > > > like to use gnome terminal for my usual terminal work which includes
> > > > > things like text editing and email and the like without a lot of
> > > > > clunkiness. Gnome terminal has issues with scrolling text as well. I
> > > > > know what's going on but it is not obvious to me how to fix the issues. 
> > > > > I
> > > > > can work around the existing problems with the terminal with a bit of
> > > > > effort but it should be fixed at some point to make things that much
> > > > > more usable.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Orca-list mailing list
> > > > > Orca-list gnome org
> > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca
> > > >
> > > > -- 
> > > >
> > > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.202.595.7777; sip:janina a11y org
> > > > Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com
> > > >
> > > > Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and
> > > > Canada
> > > > Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com
> > > >
> > > > Chair, Open Accessibility janina a11y org
> > > > Linux Foundation http://a11y.org
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Orca-list mailing list
> > > > Orca-list gnome org
> > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca
> >
> > -- 
> >
> > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.202.595.7777; sip:janina a11y org
> > Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC http://CapitalAccessibility.Com
> >
> > Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and 
> > Canada
> > Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com
> >
> > Chair, Open Accessibility janina a11y org
> > Linux Foundation http://a11y.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Orca-list mailing list
> > Orca-list gnome org
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca

-- 

Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.202.595.7777;        sip:janina a11y org
Partner, Capital Accessibility LLC      http://CapitalAccessibility.Com

Marketing the Owasys 22C talking screenless cell phone in the U.S. and Canada
Learn more at http://ScreenlessPhone.Com

Chair, Open Accessibility       janina a11y org 
Linux Foundation                http://a11y.org