Re: [orca-list] Vibuntu the most accessible Ubuntu Linux live cd for theVisually Impaired EVA III

[luke Davis <speakup lists tacticus com>]

I have avoided chiming in on this one to date, and I will probably avoid 
it in future, but I wanted to say this...

I am a person who reads those stock and investment plan (some would say 
scheme) newsletters, such as the stuff produced by the Sovereign Society 
and S&A Research (basically the whole Agora family) for fun and amusement 
(and the odd useful piece of investment information).

If you know what I'm talking about, then you know that I know whereof I 
speak, when I say that I have seen copyrighting and "creative" 
advertising, ranging from the absolutely absurd, to the world class.

While claiming Vibuntu as "the first fully accessible version of 
Linux...", or variations on that phrase, is certainly hyperbolic and 
rather overdone, it may have some effect with the target population.  and 
isn't that the point of marketing?  Getting a foot in the door?
I probably would not have said it, but then I have never been good at 
selling things.

Systems like Slackware, and I think even Redhat, have been fully 
accessible (or at least as accessible) for years, _if_ you knew how to get 
started.

But that's the problem: if you need a howto in order to get it going, even 
if it's a relatively short one, you're already behind the ball, in trying 
to get your foot in the door.

I believe it can be said to be true that most blind people using Windows, 
had a sightie do the installation. By the time the blind user got to the 
system, it was likely already talking, or could be made so with relative 
ease.

With Linux, having someone else do the install is rarely an option.  So, 
you start out, when promoting it, in "catch up" mode.  Add to that, having 
to go to some web site, and follow a possibly complex set of instructions 
in a howto (complex to someone who has only ever used Windows, or never 
used anything), when they have never actually heard of a HowTo, and aren't 
convinced that "this Linux thing" is worth all the trouble, is not at all 
a good beginning.

I have nothing invested in VIbuntu (except that I like the name:)), and am 
not myself convinced that it is a necessary project on its own (I.E. that 
it might not be better for it to either absorb, or be absorbed into, 
another project).
I have seen (and been a part of) too many projects driven by a need and a 
key personality (I.E. not driven by a team), that started out with a bang, 
but then flamed out just when they had a chance, because they did not have 
enough of a foundation in the community they existed to operate within and 
support, so I am cautious.

However the need is real, and since this does seem, at least as I 
understand the situation, to be a reasonable way of going about things for 
a quick launch of a good idea (which, unlike many other good
ideas, has a substantive product behind it), I say why not?

Yeah it has bugs.  Yeah there are things I think could and should be 
changed about the way it operates.  Yeah remastersys is probably not the 
best way to roll a distribution.  Who cares?  It works, it is out there, 
and it is constantly being worked on--I do not believe that the 
self-proclaimed deluded megalomaniac has claimed that it is complete and 
perfect yet.

Anthony may eventually decide to merge Vibuntu with something else.  We 
may even discover that it does not appeal to the intended target audience 
for what ever reason.
Ubuntu may even recognize the value in adding at least a beeping 
bootloader, and a less tricky installation process for disabled users.  
That would go a long way to eliminating the need for this project, I 
think, and is probably the way I would rather see things go.

But so what?  Are we not all about offering alternatives and choices?  Too 
many choices can be a bad thing.  Are we even close to having too many 
choices yet?

I have seen many people confused by which distribution to get into; but I 
have seen more of them struggling through the trials of getting their 
chosen distribution up and talking fully in a productive way, to think 
that there is no value in what Anthony is doing.  "Put this CD in, boot it 
up, and follow the spoken or brailled or magnified instructions", is not 
usually the response given to such questions.  Maybe soon it can be.

That is probably simplistic--one must still understand partitioning and 
multi booting and such, but that is well documented in simple ways.  To 
me, the holy grail of Linux deployment is "it just works".

Am I likely to use VIBuntu for anything other than a lark, or to aid with 
development?  No.  I've been using Linux for twelve or more years, and 
unixes longer than that.  I'm used to the hardships and hitches, and 
know where to find help, and what questions to ask.  but then, it wasn't 
meant for me, was it?

Regards,

Luke


On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Anthony Sales wrote:

> Hi Tom, its the self-deluded megalomaniac who thinks he has solved all of the
> world's problems with a simple remix of Ubuntu. I think the key here is to
> remember that this distro is not really aimed at Linux users at all - but
> visually impaired users who maybe haven't even heard of linux before. I am
> trying to 'sell it' (for free remember) to teachers, trainers, colleges and
> institutions in the UK who probably have never heard of or used Linux before.
> When promoting something it is usually to emphasise its strengths rather than
> weaknesses. No one is going to sell many cars if they use the slogan, 'its
> OK, its pretty much like other models really'. In the same spirit that
> Carlsberg claim to brew 'probably the best larger in the world', I have
> claimed to have produced 'the first fully accessible version of Linux for
> visually impaired users who have never used Linux before'. It has certainly
> got peoples attention and a bit of a debate going! You know that I don't take
> myself that seriously, but I think you would have to agree that Vibuntu, even
> though it still needs lots of work, is probably the only Linux distro that
> you or I know of that could be booted and experimented with by someone with
> no experience of Linux, who would have no chance of being able to configure
> it themselves without support and/or sighted help. I think a lot of people in
> the Linux VI community forget just how difficult it is to get into Linux, and
> the fact they they are so technically competant themselves etc makes them
> lose sight of the fact that the vast majority of VI users are not hackers and
> have no ambitions to be so. They just want to browse the web, send a few
> e-mails or write a letter etc. If Vibuntu helps just a few people kick their
> dependancy on microsoft than I will consider it a time well spent. (What
> would you rather be doing - translating T3 scripts into Welsh or tinkering
> with Ubuntu?) Yours in humble modesty, drbongo.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ubuntu-accessibility-bounces lists ubuntu com on behalf of Thomas Lloyd
> Sent: Sun 14/12/2008 22:02
> To: ubuntu-accessibility lists ubuntu com
> Subject: Re: Vibuntu the most accessible Ubuntu Linux live cd for theVisually
> Impaired EVA III
>  
> I also agree that the claim of the first accessible Linux is a tad far
> fetched and maybe the most accessible Ubuntu Linux live cd for the
> Visually Impaired. Is more accurate? We all fall victim to claims of
> self grandeur at times, especially when it our baby.
>
> I think that the proof is in the pudding as Tony has said himself the
> community will decide. I have no issues with slightly misleading
> marketing if it saves any disabled people money and opens up more
> opportunity for them.
>
> This is not to undermine what has been done in the past by other groups
> and if there are better products for those people they will find them.
> But we all need a starting point and if you are forced to spend a small
> fortune to start on a computer many people who can, either can not or
> don't.
>
> So all in all keep up the good work make sure you add in a feature that
> forces the user to change their password at least and maybe their
> username after an install and I will stop worrying about security.
>
> NL