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Re: Localized Pages

After reading this thread, i would have to agree with Christian. I speak english, and my browser default is set to english, when i goto a website i expect english, i don't expect german and a link to the english site. It just makes the web developers look incompetent, you know enough to translate a site, but you can't handle autodection. It's not a hard thing to do, apache has built in support, and it would be easy to provide the same capabilites in php, pearl, or python.
We shouldn't make things harder on the users of Gnome website just because the technology might mess up 1% of the time.
The solution to me seems to auto detect the browsers default language, and provide a link if we dectected wrong, or the user wants a different language. 

-joshua eichorn
(this could be handled using redirects if that makes people feel better, the technology is all simple) 
Christian Rose wrote:


Bennett, Daniel wrote:
Why? Why should it be any more low-priority than for example translating 
Windows? That certainly isn't low-priority to Microsoft, and part of
Microsofts success is that Microsoft programs are localized into many
languages (and offers support for a lot of character sets an input methods).
What does Microsoft have to do with the GNOME web site? Let's compare apples to apples.. If I set my language preferences es-mx and es, does www.microsoft.com come up in Spanish? No, not on my browser.. maybe it works for you.. maybe it's my company's firewall.. maybe it's just me.. but it doesn't make it any more relevant.
If you read what I replied to, it was your statement about "internationalization of something as technical as GNOME is a low priority". You weren't talking about just the GNOME web site. You were talking about the GNOME project as a whole, including software localization, translated documentation etc. I think comparing that with how Microsoft sees these aspects is *very* relevant. After all, we do that in other areas all the time. 



I think it is an issue, and the people who need the translations the
most are the ones that definately wouldn't even realize there was a
"poll" or something like that to ask about preferred language (I don't
know if that was suggested).
His argument was that it did not appear to him to be a critical issue to hold the non-English speaker's hands and that they could find the translated versions on their own.. Is this right? I dunno, someone gave their father as an example of someone who would be interested in learning about GNOME, and *would* need language hand-holding.. Right, or wrong it certainly didn't warrant your response.
So your only gripe is my rant in reply to the troll about computers should be for English users, since if you're not understanding English you're too stupid and should not be allowed to use one? Or, to give an exact quote, "if someone doesn't understand enlgish should not be using computers, al least not linux".
I think you should read that again and try to understand how amazingly offensive stupid statements like that is to large parts of this world. Then read my response with that in mind.
We can keep this sane with three questions: What is the number of people who would like auto-internationalization? What is the number of people who would rather decide for themselves if they need it? Which number is biggest?
For a number of reasons, voting on this mailing list probably won't reflect the wishes of "real" visitors at all. To start with, we're all understanding English rather well on this list, aren't we? Then we're not at all representative to the world at large.
In the software industry, software companies do user testing on "real" people, not on the developers. This is also true for web companies (some at least). So I think deciding usability issues based on a small, rather homogenous group's preferences, compared to testing with a randomly picked and representative group, is not that successful.
The reason I'm stating that I think international visitors want translated content *by default* is based on my own experience, some of it as simple as watching my dad do testing of web sites (I tell him where to go, he tries to do that, I watch him do stuff without helping). As it turns out, he seems to be a very good test object for novice user testing :-)
And the pattern I've seen with both him and other people is that if it's not translated and presented in his local language by default, it simply won't get his attention. He will try to find other places with this information, or simply halt and ask me what to do. If I ask him why, he answers "I don't have the time to try and read that" or "That's English, I can't [don't want to] read that".
I think he's representative of a large part of the Swedish population that aren't that fluent with English, and prefer localized content. Granted, he is older than your average geek, and most younger people in Sweden (and the rest of Scandinavia) are rather fluent with English. But this situation can be entirely different in other countries. For example, I have a cousin (same age as me) in Germany, and he just plain refuses to use software that isn't in German. Likewise, he only visits web sites with content in German. And the important thing here, he's NOT a computer novice like my father, on the contrary, he works as a technician. He just thinks that his English knowledge sucks that bad that he just doesn't want to have something to do with it.
My answer to your second question "What is the number of people who would rather decide for themselves if they need it?" is that is a warranted question, but in this case it is somewhat wrongly formulated.
With the question formulated that way, you *assume* that most people don't "need it" localized. I think that formulation is wrong. If you want an example, let me tell you that the most-visited sites internationally are the localized versions of popular sites. For example, in Sweden msn.se is *way* more popular than msn.com, and idg.se is way more popular than idg.com, and so on. I know the same pattern is present in Germany (and all the site-visitor studies show that local versions of popular sites, if such exist, are far more visited than their "original" in non-english speaking countries).
Granted, these sites are both translated and have local content, but I think that even if you removed the local content, a majority of the visitors would still prefer the local version, just because of the local-language translation. It is very similar to computer magazines - it is, in my experience, a *very* small niche here that read computer magazines in English. I think the placement of those English-language magazines in shops also back that statement. Most people in my experience buy computer magazines for software and hardware reviews, and these are after all very similar and don't differ that much based on where they were performed. So even if the tests are similar to tests performed in English magazines, the majority still prefers buying the local magazines with the stuff in their native language.
So I think your question is wrongly formulated. Instead of "needs" it should clearly be "wants". As a visitor I don't "need" a pretty gnome.org page, but I would definately want one that isn't ugly. The same for translation - I might be able to understand some English but would definately not want to *have to* do that. And then, after all, there are those who don't understand English at all, for which it goes from "not desirable" to "unusable".
Also, your question makes it look like that if an automatic detection is used, the user hasn't chosen for himself. Well, I think this is wrong, because the user has, after all, set this preference.
Or, maybe we can just compromise by saying that if an international user was detected we offer a direct link, in his language to the international version best suited for his reading enjoyment. If he wants to continue in English, he can, if he can't read English there's a friendly message in his tongue pointing him to the right place.
But then comes usability again - why should I have to click additionally when I already have a preference set? 


Christian


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