Re: 3d number 3

[Reklaw <nawalker earthlink net>]

On  8 Oct, Hibbard M. Engler wrote:
> This is really good for me.  thanks again.  
> 

Ok. you've got me thinking <grin>.

<snip>

> Greg - What benefits are there in 3d land?
> 3d land:
> 	o 3 dimensional data flow diagram language to better implement
> 	 threads and graphical programs.
> 	o tri-dimensional spreadsheets 

These could be done with the current 2d with some 3d windows.

> 	o more realistic icons

Do you mean 3d mesh icons. hmmm. fun! That could be put into
current 2d windowmanagers aswell as a "space-manager".

> 	o Iconized programs could be placed in a box- out of site and
> mind.  This box could shield the users from pop-up messages and the like.

I like this idea. Could be used in 2d managers as well.

> 	o The background becomes a backscape- and points of interest in
> the scape can be identifiers for where material is kept.
> 	o File manager would act more like a file cabinet. moving files
> from one folder to another would not require using the scroll bar on a
> huge directory structure.

Would the file manager and other 3d app intergrate into to the
background world. What happens when the app crashes (cave-in!).
Serious room for theme-ablity here. I think you would need something
other than a mouse here. My big problem with most VMRL browsers is
that nav is clunky, I spend more time dealing with nav than with the
task at hand. I had a 3d file manager for windows once. It was a big
disappointment. It displayed the files a building (the hieght equal
to file-size). A 3d filemanager would be cool (if done right) but
generaly result in more nav-time.

> 	o Better roadmaps for navigation- you can see landmarks and do a
> "virtual drive"
> 	o Better warehouse inventory systems

Yes. But it would need to be on a PDA to be of much use.  

> 	o cars and real-estate could be better presented for online
> perusal.

Hmmmm. weak. but ok.

> 	o A 3d dataflow software language could be used, and worked with 
> which would better fit the style of programming.

I have played with one of those, I'm on my lunch hour right now -- later
I will dig-up a URL. It was experimental. The neat thing about it was
that if-then-else was displayed a thing like those fast-food drink
carriers (do you know what mean?) and you built and placed a condishion
in one compartment and the expression in the others. Helped you grasp
the control flow, but anything beyond the example just looked confusing.

> 	o Celestial bodies could be mapped easier onto the system.

Single app. can do it with current 2d system with some 3d windows. Would
be neat to have it mapped into the background world. but is like running
xearth on the root. fluff.

> 	o programs could have little 3d charactures that would talk to and
> work with the user (like Mozilla for netscape, catbert for system
> resources, mickey for the mouse, and don't forget the penguin!)

Don't forget talking 3d paper clips <grin>.

> 	o Manufacturing systems could be more easily modelled and
> understood.

Single app. see above.

> 	o  etc.
> 
> With sound also incorporated - like a simple interface where the user can
> bark commands, and the computer talks back, could have many applications. 
>  I would wish the interface, and the apps to allow typed, spoken, and
> gestured user information to control and command action.  An example of
> a mainly sound based program is as follows:

Maybe you should convince the esound people to work on a 3d-sound
(point-sources, conial-sources, doppler-effect) API. The gaming people
would love it.

<snip voice app stuff>

> 
> With 3d and sound interfaces, the computer can do more than ever before.

It do most of it now. The main diff I see would be intergrating it into
the "background-world" the user has chosen.

> 
> 
> I entered this mailing list to see if I could influence this development,
> as because it is Red Hat, much clout goes into whatever you create.
> Thanks to the constructive criticism, I now know that Berlin, or my own
> creation would be a more proper avenue.  But before I leave this
> enlightening debate, I would ask you if any of the 3d ideas on the top of
> my head appeal, or reveal the need for a "deeper" paradigm.  This is
> important to me, as it will help me decide if my plan is cool, just OK,
> completely done before, or lame.

Ok, I thought your first post was just flame-bait, but it seems your
serious.

My advice, create a "space-manager" that (at first) would provide a
"background-world" and display 2d apps in a thing that looks like a
flat-panel-LCD. Like older passive-LCD's it would have a narrow
viewing zone. Make it easy to snap to the view zone quickly (hotkeys
or something). When your outside the viewing zone, take a snapshot
of the app (like E DR13 did for icons), The app should be told that
it is iconified, but you display a the panel using the snapshot as
a texture. The user could also place it in a box like you mentioned.
The space manager would be like a window-manager. If people
try it out and like it, they would push for 3d app to interact with
it. Please plan on supporting berlin with it though (by the
berlin is done, Cobra may not slow it down, wish they would switch to
ORBit), I think you could imp this scheme in X but X is not suited for
it, berlin would be a better fit.

You could maybe use a house metaphore. Have rooms for the office (a
sparten easy to render room for intense work), play-room (user
can "hang" pictures" and have a toy-chest with games), media-room
(a dark-room with a remote for using animation programs), etc. Have
hotkeys to switch between viewpoints (multiple viewpoints per 
room) and/or rooms.

The user should be able to mark an area on the screen for legacy-apps'
omnipresent windows (like the watcher window from tkRat) to pop-up when
they are not in the "box". I say this because I'd still like to see
the subjects of incoming email when I'm in the play-room.

You might also want to enhance GNOME-apps by using mesa to create a
real-time 3d theme engine for GTK+. Make it interoperate with the
space-manager. Finially buttons would behave correctly when clicked
<grin>.

Write a 3d file-manager that interacts with the space manager.
See where it goes.

I encourge you to experiment, but please don't suggest we drop 2d
completely.

> 
> Thanks again,
> Hib
> 
> 

-- 
==========
Reklaw - I code therefore I need gin and sprite.
GNOME software projects - Pharmacy * gnome-standalone 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nawalker/