Re: thinking outside the box (or, stealing the _really_ good ideas)

[Maciej Stachowiak <mstachow mit edu>]

carlt@cc64317-a.hwrd1.md.home.com writes:
> Gnome developers, please read this and let me know what you think!
> 
> (See end of message for quote from sun's message, to which this
> responds.)
> 
> I don't think it is a good idea to make the menus for Gnome programs
> different from those on Windows and the Mac OS.  

The vritue of this sentiment notwithstanding, that is impossibly
because Windows and the MacOS have different standard menu
arrangements. Now, when they actually agree on a point, especially
when the Motif style guidelines and the NeXT style guidelines or what
have you agree, we should probably just accept that as a GUI universal
and stick to it. But where they differ, or in places where they are
the same that we feel strongly about, we should feel free to change
things.

> While I agree that
> these ideas would make leaning easier for a new computer user, Gnome
> isn't for new computer users; it's for new Linux users. 

I disagree. I think Gnome is for Linux users. All of them. Including
those of us who have not used Windows or the MacOS in years and cringe
when we are forced to. I am a Unix hacker, not a Windows refugee, and
I would personally like to feel comfortable using Gnome. While the
needs of Windows refugees should be adressed as well, I don't think
they should be the overriding goal. After all, we're writing the code,
not them. (OK, so I have written _that_ much code yet, but this is
just my opinion).


[...snip...]

> From my experience, I believe that
> if we change something as fundamental as where the "Quit" or "Exit"
> option is located, we are going to lose converts.

I'd accept that this is a GUI universal.

>  It's hard enough to help a new user learn how to use the Linux OS
> itself, we don't need to make them relearn how to use their
> applications too!
> 
> My point is that the Gnome developers need to take a step back and ask
> themselves when they incorporate new concepts like this the question
> "Who does this make it easier for?"  The three possible answers are:
> 
>   1. Strong Un*x users such as the developers themselves who already
>      know how to tweak their environment and can easily adapt to new,
>      "better" methods of working.
>   2. Currently non-existant new computer users who install Linux as their
>      first OS and have never used another before.
>   3. The majority of new Linux users who already know that "Print" and
>      "Exit" _should_ be under the "File" menu because Microsoft and Apple
>      have told them so.
> 
> Obviously, I believe that Gnome's features should geared at least 70% to
> the third group.  They're the ones who need Gnome's help, they're the
> ones which Linux needs, and they're the ones who will drive Linux to
> world domination.
> 

I strongly disagree. While all these groups should be considered, free
software has gotten where it is today by being enjoyable to
technically competent people. While the goal of desktop projects is to
be more friendly to less technical users, I think they must also not
lose the key property of being fun for the people who code them.

> Finally, I really think the Gnome developers ought to recruit volunteers
> from the potential new Linux users community (translated as Windows and
> Mac users) and put them "in charge" of the look-and-feel of the UI.  If
> they say "Gee, that widget should be over there and do xyz because that's
> what we're comfortable with in Windows" then the Gnome developers need
> to listen.  

If they want it that way they can code it. 

> The major problem with development of free projects is that
> the developers are not answerable to anyone but themselves, 

In the strictest sense, no, and this is what makes free software
hacking as much fun as it is. However, we want our software to be
used, so ultimately we are answerable to the users as well. And since
dissatisfied users can redistribute modified versions, ultimately
significantly positive changes will get folded in.

> Of course, all of this only applies to the default setup, users should
> be free to customize as much as they like (within reason).

The default layout should probably be more target to Windows/Mac
refugees and other naiive users. For example, the default for toolbars
should be icons plus text with tooltips on. Once you're experienced
enough to be more annoyed than helped by that, you can turn it off.

> 
> Truthfully, I shouldn't be talking because I have not found the time to
> be more active developing software for Linux the last couple of years,
> but hopefully that will change in the very near future and I'll be able
> to contribute starting with the Gnome project.  (Maybe someone could
> write a decent tutorial or manual for GTK--?)

Read the excellent Gtk+ tutorial and s/C/C++/g :-)

>  Just so you know, though,
> I am a professional Unix developer and administrator and run Linux for
> just about everything.  I only touch Windows for games!
> 
> Please feel free to flame me for telling you how to run your project.
> 

Well, what I wrote is not intended as a flame. I think my main point
is, "code talks", but I've just violated that rule by babbling on for
two pages. :-)

- Maciej

> 
> PS: Gnome needs a default window manager.  The current situation is
>     confusing.
> 

Distributors can pick one, but I think blessing a single official
default would be politically untenable.

 - Maciej Stachowiak