Re: thinking outside the box (or, stealing the _really_ good ideas)

["Carl E. Thompson" <carlt cc64317-a hwrd1 md home com>]

Gnome developers, please read this and let me know what you think!

(See end of message for quote from sun's message, to which this
responds.)

I don't think it is a good idea to make the menus for Gnome programs
different from those on Windows and the Mac OS.  While I agree that
these ideas would make leaning easier for a new computer user, Gnome
isn't for new computer users; it's for new Linux users.  The vast
majority of new Linux users already have used Windows or Mac OS, so
I think it makes sense to leverage what those users already know to
make sure their transition to Linux is a easy as possible.  While we
_could_ make a new menu structure that is more intuitive than the defacto
standard, I submit that doing so will actually make it harder for new
Linux users to stay new Linux users.  I have been using Linux for some
years now and pushing for its acceptance in the corporate world.  I have
helped countless business and home computer users try Linux and configure
it to meet their needs, but I have never met or heard of a new Linux user
who didn't already know how to use DOS/Windows or Mac OS.  Why make all
of these people relearn the basics?  From my experience, I believe that
if we change something as fundamental as where the "Quit" or "Exit"
option is located, we are going to lose converts.  It's hard enough to
help a new user learn how to use the Linux OS itself, we don't need to
make them relearn how to use their applications too!

My point is that the Gnome developers need to take a step back and ask
themselves when they incorporate new concepts like this the question
"Who does this make it easier for?"  The three possible answers are:

  1. Strong Un*x users such as the developers themselves who already
     know how to tweak their environment and can easily adapt to new,
     "better" methods of working.
  2. Currently non-existant new computer users who install Linux as their
     first OS and have never used another before.
  3. The majority of new Linux users who already know that "Print" and
     "Exit" _should_ be under the "File" menu because Microsoft and Apple
     have told them so.

Obviously, I believe that Gnome's features should geared at least 70% to
the third group.  They're the ones who need Gnome's help, they're the
ones which Linux needs, and they're the ones who will drive Linux to
world domination.

Finally, I really think the Gnome developers ought to recruit volunteers
from the potential new Linux users community (translated as Windows and
Mac users) and put them "in charge" of the look-and-feel of the UI.  If
they say "Gee, that widget should be over there and do xyz because that's
what we're comfortable with in Windows" then the Gnome developers need
to listen.  The major problem with development of free projects is that
the developers are not answerable to anyone but themselves, and a
developers concept of an easy to use, intuitive, and elegant UI does not
generally match that of the average user.  My understanding is that the
Gnome project is about making Linux more approachable for the average new
user.

Of course, all of this only applies to the default setup, users should
be free to customize as much as they like (within reason).

Truthfully, I shouldn't be talking because I have not found the time to
be more active developing software for Linux the last couple of years,
but hopefully that will change in the very near future and I'll be able
to contribute starting with the Gnome project.  (Maybe someone could
write a decent tutorial or manual for GTK--?)  Just so you know, though,
I am a professional Unix developer and administrator and run Linux for
just about everything.  I only touch Windows for games!

Please feel free to flame me for telling you how to run your project.

Later,
Carl Everard Thompson

PS: Gnome needs a default window manager.  The current situation is
    confusing.



On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, sun wrote:
... 
> remember the gimp, the program that started it all? i love that
> interface. i've gotten completely hooked on it, and in fact for those
> rare occasions when i need to do some work in photoshop i really miss
> having all the commands at most an inch away from my mouse pointer just
> by right-clicking. i think all gnome applications should have an option
> to turn the menubar _off_ and make all the commands accessible from a
> right-clickable "root menu" instead. it's just a spin for the better on
> the "contextual menu" ideas so popular in win32 and mac os 8. see the
> gimp and electriceyes for an example of this.
> 
> further, i'd like to propose that all the menus we're so used to seeing
> be limited to their _original_ usage: for instance, the "file" menu
> should only contain commands that deal directly with files on a drive,
> open, save, save as, etc. "edit" should only contain commands that deal
> directly with shaping _content_ of the main window: cut, copy, paste,
> spell-check, whatever.
> 
> the right-clickable "root menu" should also contain choices that _are
> not_ menus themselves, especially those that have been "kicked out" of
> the file and edit menus: quit, options, and "show menu bar" (if you just
> can't live without them) for starters.
> 
> of course, there is still the question of what to do with the "bastard"
> root menu choices (like "quit," "options," and "hide menu bar" when the
> menu bar is shown normally. an idea i had was to create a new menu
> remeniscent of the apple menu in the mac os or the atari menu in tos
> which, instead of containing os-wide options like desk accessories,
> would contain those "bastard" or miscellaneous menu choices that deal
> with the program itself. we could use the program's default icon rather
> than a text label, too, to differentiate it from the other menus which
> are more dedicated to getting the actual work of the program done.
...