Dan on Bowie

["Dan \"Effugas\" Kaminsky" <effugas best com>]

-----Original Message-----
From: John R Sheets <dusk@smsi-roman.com>
To: Bowie Poag <bjp@primenet.com>
Cc: gnome-gui-list@gnome.org <gnome-gui-list@gnome.org>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: "PROPOSAL:" ...harvest the RSG first..nice try.


>Bowie Poag wrote:
>>
>> Tom:
>>
>> I'd *really* appreciate it if you didnt try to pass off proposals, making
>> them look like they were delivered by us. None of the maintainers want
(or
>> need) to harvest anything from your project. Thanks for confusing the
>> mailing list in the process, tho.


EXCUSE ME?  I DEDICATE MYSELF TO WORKING ON MY WEB PAGE FOR A DAY AND THIS
HAPPENS?

>So now it's down to "Only maintainers can make proposals" and
>"The RSG is worthless"?  Are you serious?  The more this goes on,
>the more embarassed I am to be a part of this whole style guide
>thing.


Do not be embarrassed.

Bowie, it's statements like that above that *really* *really* just tweak me
off.  You said I was a maintainer, and have equal power to you.

So why are you saying such gunk?  *I* think we should harvest from Tom's
guide what's good, and I've been saying this forever.  If you wonder WHY
people feel like you're disconnected, this is one reason.

Public squabbling between us maintainers should be kept to a minimum.  But I
won't be treated like "If I wanted your opinion, I would tell it to you."
If you *publically* tell others my opinion, I will *publically* correct you.

John, anybody can make a proposal.  What Bowie was trying to say was that
the discussion of exactly what should be in the overall style guide *is
significantly more usable* when we are only discussing what should be in one
style guide, rather than two, three, or four.  Bowie's right.  He should be;
he does have a significant amount of experience.  Unfortunately, the same
experience that makes his opinion so valuable has a way of making him feel
like since he's already been through this once, any arguments are those that
he's already won once and thus doesn't need to go through again.

The RSG isn't, and wasn't useless.  Your contribution was excellent, Tom's
organization of that contribution was very helpful, and Bowie's unnecessary
thrashing of good work makes his work *and my work* look really really bad.

Bowie's in a tough spot.  He has to try to keep things open, but he has to
try to keep them under control.  We have to respect that this is a difficult
position to be in, but HE has to respect us as well.  He's trying.

By the way--150 messages in the last few days, only a few from
me(Tom--better ignore everyone.  JUST KIDDING ;-) ;-) ;-).  We need way more
IRC conferences and we *really* need an nntp-based proposal engine.
gnome.sg.applications.menus.standardized, for instance, would discuss what
standardized menus would exist.

This is a BIG BIG BIG project, folks.  It has to be.  That's why I stand
behind Bowie--he's the only person here who has been through this before.  I
respectfully request that everybody give Bowie the benefit of the doubt.
He's NOT some kind of idiot that a few of you think he is--he's a stressed
ui worker who is being forced to generate something substantially earlier
than he planned.  Stressed people make mistakes, but mistakes can be
corrected.

I'm sorry, though, Bowie.  They cannot be ignored.


Hoping Bowie doesn't regret his (irreversable) decision to bring me on
board...

                        Dan