Re: RGSG

[Tom Vogt <tom lemuria org>]

this is my final post on the topic. I don't care if you're not convinced
afterwards, because we don't need to convince EVERYONE to find a consent,
ok?

Dan Kaminsky <effugas@best.com> wrote:
> >"File"->Close
> >and
> >"Program"->Exit
> >does anyone see any source of confusion there? I don't. your point is mood,
> >dan, exactly BECAUSE of the "Program" menu.
> 
> Like I said, Close should be spelled out.

you're nitpicking and avoiding the argument. replace "File" with "Document"
("Document"->Close - does it need to be spelled out?) or spell it out
("File"->Close Spreadsheet), it does not matter to the point I was making.
would be cool if you'd answer that point.


> >dude, there is exactly  one person arguing against the Program menu here
> and
> >that is you. I just got an e-mail from bowie in response to the
> Prog/Program
> >discussion saying basically that he wondered how many people it would take
> >to convince  me - gotta bounce  that question right back at you.
> 
> I don't care about numbers.  I care about *fleshed out proposals*.

go to the list archive, look back two weeks, you'll find.


> What do you say to:
> 
> 1)  What's excluded by Program?  File implies I/O(you take a document inside
> or out of a physical file), but Program?  ANYTHING could go inside of
> Program.
reading the first proposal 2+ weeks ago would have answered that question.
I'm not telling you all this "two weeks ago" stuff to make you mad, I really
think you're not reading carefully what we've been discussing here, because
you constantly misunderstand.
the answer to your question is: "Program" will contain those menu items that
do something or relate to the application as a whole.
cut doesn't work in "Program" because you don't cut the whole app, you cut a
text OUT OF it. a point might be made for "Help" and I think that's worth a
discussion. "Exit" belongs there, logic for this has been laid out in detail
in other mails. "Close (document)" does not because it doesn't affect the
app as a whole, only its contents. and so on. this is actually a pretty
sharp distinction.


> 2)  So where are you going to PUT program, anyway?  If it doesn't kill File,
> by your own admission it doesn't belong in the left side, and by your own
> admission you don't want to kill file.  But, if it doesn't belong on the
> left side, and if it doesn't kill File, it really doesn't get most of the
> advantages "everyone" here seems to want.
it does not kill file, correct. at this moment it is leftmost of file, but
there might be a reason to move it somewhere else. this is NOT decided upon,
it has been mentioned only ONCE (so you CAN read carefully if you want!).



> 3)  The research.  Ask some users what they do if there's no Quit.  They
> control-alt-delete.  On a Linux box, that's instant shutdown right now.
> (That needs to change.)
total bullshit. sorry, but this is so stupid, it hurts.

T H E R E   I S   A   Q U I T

simple as that. question answered.


> 4)  Lets say somebody *disagrees* with you about what's a Program menu thing
> and what's a File menu thing.  Now users are going to have to hunt back and
> forth "I wonder where THIS app decided to put print"
there will be no disagreement. the style guide will lay out in detail what
belongs into the Program menu. period.


> Tom, there are more proposals out there than your own.
right. nearly all are variations, like using an icon instead of the name
"Program". you introduced the idea of killing file, then keeping file, then
doing both or nothing.

talking about proposals: how about to hear an actual proposal from you? just
to compare things...



> I don't fear dissent.  I fear committee rubberstamp.
I fear that one guy stops the whole show. if there would be any discussion,
that would be fine. look at the 250k mails today. not much mails that
weren't either from you or to you, eh?

time to sit back and get some distance, dan.

-- 
The universe does not have laws -- it has habits, and habits can be broken.