Re: [gnome-cy] Accelerators, HTML

On Mon, Mar 17, 2003 at 09:33:40AM +0000, Telsa Gwynne wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2003 at 02:05:18AM +0000 or thereabouts, Dafydd Harries wrote:
> Yes. In GNOME, That could be
>   _Cyflawni gorchymyn arall yn lle fy nghragen i
>   Cyflawni gorchymyn _arall yn lle fy nghragen i
> And so on. 
> On the other hand, if people who use keybindings are used to
> the bindings and don't see them as language-specific, so to
> speak, you could leave all the bindings untranslated and have
> the original letter as in your example. I don't know what 
> other programs already do. 

Hmm. Yes, it would be preferable that existing accelerators are
preserved whenever possible, but I don't feel that we should go out of
way to do it. (i.e. I don't like things like "(_A)".) So far, I've found
that the new accelerator is naturally the same as the old one,
especially since there are quite a few borrowed/adapted words (Title ->
Teitl, File -> Ffeil).

As for identical accelerators within the same context, I suppose we'll
have to find those by testing.

> Shells, now... I printed out that proto-GNOME glossary yesterday
> (it was 30 sheet of paper, with two pages per sheet) and Gareth and 
> Chris pored over it checking it. Those are the words we hope to use
> as 'standard' translations in GNOME. They're abour 90% there. 

I gather I've been using that indirectly through Omnivore, which I have
bee checking a lot.

> One of the interesting words was "shell". The original intended
> analogy when the term shell was introduced was likening an OS to
> a nut. (Some are clearly more nutty than others.) So at the
> centre is a kernel and on the outside is the (nut)shell.
> Has Welsh largely settled on cragen as a translation? We had 
> three words: that, mantell... and plisgyn. Is there a consensus
> on shell being cragen? Apparently plisgyn fits the idea better.

I suspect that, in many cases, our effort will be influential in
establishing vocabulary. In many cases, there simply aren't existing
terms. For example, for "screenshot" I used the word "sgrÓngipiad" which
I didn't knowingly take from anywhere and, for all, I know, might be my
own invention. I do think its meaning is self-apparent (to a Welsh
speaker, anyway), and there was no pre-existing term I knew of, and it
felt right, so I used it.

As for "shell", I'm not sure. Mantell translates as "mantle" which is a
slightly different metaphor, although it matches the terminology for the
Earth's layers. I think plisgyn matches the original metaphor slightly
more closely. Cragen is associated with living creatures more. I think
the choice is more or less arbitrary in this case and may come down to
personal preference. I'm not sure which one I like best.

> I'll bring the sheaf of paper along to the LUG in Swansea
> tonight. Anyone within reach of that is welcome to come along (*)
> and suggest other words. Then I'll update the proto-glossary
> and post it here: and I'll put a second list of just the ones
> which are empty or "not sure here". 

Humph, I wish I could be there.

Since it seems that there will need to be some involved discussion,
might I float the idea of an IRC channel? What do people think?

> I saw someone had added comments where "AND" and "OR" were 
> included in the po files about "Are we really translating
> these?" 

Yes, I think that was me :). Tangentially, we do have to be careful
sometimes when there is a string that shouldn't be translated within a
message. There was an example, I think it was in gnome-session and I
think it was a description for a GConf key, which quoted the string
values the key could take.

I've been sort-of keeping notes on phrases I've been uncertain about,
which I'll include now since you might want to discuss them in the
meeting tonight.

"Directory" seems to always be "cyfeiriadur", but sometimes the word
"folder" is used, and I've seen that translated into both "ffoldr" and
"plygell". I think having both "directory" and "folder" is unneccessary
and confusing in the first place, but between "ffoldr" and "plygell" I
prefer the latter. Although the former might be marginally more obvious
to those who have used other systems that use "folder", the latter
sounds less artificial, and, well, more Welsh.

"Workspace". This has been translated as "man gwaith" ("mannau gwaith"),
"gweithfan" ("gweithfannau"), and "gweithle" ("gweithlefydd"). This
deinitely needs standardising. Gweithle is a pre-existing term for
"workplace". Apart from that distingushing factor, there isn't much
advantage either way that I can see.

"Username". The translation I've used is the cumbersome "enw defnyddiwr"
which I don't think matches well with the original, since it seems to me
to imply "user's name" whereas it isn't necessarily anything to do with
the user's name at all. I suspect something based on "cyfrif" would be
imperative form

"Remove". The current favourite is "Tynnu", which I don't feel works
very well, since the obvious meaning is "pull". We could use "dileu" but
there's probably a reason why the English doesn't use "delete" in the
frist place.

"Desktop". Currently, "bwrdd gwaith" is getting used. Literally, that's
something like "work table". It doesn't help that "desktop" is used to
mean more than one thing: what you can see on the screen, the whole
Gnome environment, and what'r underneath all your windows. At any rate,
I don't really like "bwrdd gwaith".

"Widget". I think I got around this one by dodging it (i.e. providing a
message that didn't utilize the widget concept), but once we start
on GTK+ in earnest (over 1100 messages) I don't think that'll be viable
in the longer term. It's been translated into "Widget" at least once.
That sounds strange. "Widged", maybe? "Teclyn"? It would be nice to
preserve the spirit of the original.

"Terminal". There are two competing translations: "terfynydd" and
"terfynell". "Terfynydd" makes me think "Terminator".

"Keybinding". I've been avoiding this one by using "ffurfosodiad

"Shortcut", "Acclerator", "Mnemonic". Eek.

"Button" and "Key". Currently these are both being translated as
"botwm", which could lead to confusion.

"Argument", currently "Ymresymiad", which sounds strange to me. (It
makes me think "reasoning".)

"Initialize". Usually this occurs in phrases like "There was an error
initializing the grobslot data structure."

"Option", "Preference", "Setting", and "Configuration", translated as
"Dewisiad", "Dewisiad", "Gosodiad", and "Ffurfosodiad" respectively.

"Default", currently "Rhagosodiad" which sounds strange some times more
than oters but I can't think of an example right now.

"Reset", currently "Ailosod", which is find in many cases but goes
strange when used for phrases like "reset to defaults" and for resetting
a terminal, because it implies "setting again" which doesn't quite fit.

That should be enough to keep you busy for now. Some of the terms I've
picked on might be standard, and other people might really like them;
these are just my pesonal feelings.


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