Re: [gnome-cy] DIOLCH! -- News, updates, figures, and screenshot URLs

[Dafydd Harries <daf parnassus ath cx>]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 02:18:07PM +0100, Telsa Gwynne wrote:
> 
> After some degree of wrestling, confusion, and my ability to reduce
> any Linux program to chaos, Dafydd and I have fed all these in on HEAD 
> and on the 2-2 branch. There is one exception: gnome-pim. There seems 
> to be something broken in that module itself. As soon as it is fixed, 
> in the file shall go.
> 
> > The next sub-project will likely be something pim-related, so if the Gnome 
> > team wants to send some files in that area, please go ahead.  As with 
> > Basecamp, the total limit should be around 5000 strings, to keep things 
> > manageable.  
> 
> Since someone is working their way through Epiphany, we have a 
> present for you. A more-than-half-done Evolution :) 
> 
> Alan had earlier written a program akin to what the msgmerge 
> program does: it fills in gaps with strings it's sure about.
> This took Evolution down from 6000 strings to about 4800. Then
> I started going through looking for the easy bits.
> 
> It turns out that about 40% of that file is a list of timezones
> and airports which need almost no translation. Dafydd took over
> armed with a "fill msgstr with msgid" vim macro.

Let a bit of Perl loose on it, too.

> This was just an experiment, but since we now have this result,
> perhaps this is the one to send to Kyfieithu:
> 
> $ pwd; msgfmt -cv cy.po
> /home/hobbit/cvs/evolution/po
> 4053 translated messages, 2336 untranslated messages.

(That's 63.44%!)

> It is full of stuff about managing your appointments, so it
> does count as a PIM, I think!

Oh, definitely. It's all contact lists and appointments and taks and
stuff. (Can you tell I don't use it?)

> If you want this, do you want -just- the untranslated parts? 
> I think the whole file will be easier from a merging-back-in 
> point of view. And you'd get the translations into Omnivore. 
> Although admittedly things like Europe/London -> Ewrop/Llundain, 
> Sydney -> Sydney and Acapulco -> Acapulco are of limited use.
> But the file is very big. Should I break it up into pieces
> or is it easier for you to? If you want to grab it from the
> web pages, be very careful: you want the one on the -1-4
> (not -2-2) branch, not anything from head. 

I don't think it would be a problem merging a partial file back in, if
we do tricks with msgcat and friends. It might be more
translator-friendly to put a file with untranslated items (2336 of them)
up and put a file with the translated strings into Omnivore. A smaller
file wlil mean, as Kevin said, that people will be able to see progress
quicker.

> (Note: we didn't translate Newport because that seems to be
> an American Newport. So that's deliberate.)
> 
> I'm thinking this because we have found that with the rate of
> change on HEAD, there are always a few little strings that have
> changed between the files going to Kyfieithu and the files
> coming back. One big file with a couple of fuzzies to fix is
> far easier than half a dozen smaller ones. 

I think we could probably get around that with something like msgcat
again. And yes, I'm volunteering to do it if it needs doing!

> * In fact, we have reports of successful installation of the .mo and 
> .po tarballs Dafydd (Harries) keeps on: Debian, SuSE, and FreeBSD. 
> There is even some suggestion that Debian sid seems to be including
> some of the translations already. (Daf's stuff is at 
> http://muse.19inch.net/~daf/gnome-cy/ and he is working on the
> ar-linux site too.)

I still need to put a coherent set of instructions for getting the daily
mo tarball working. There are two parts to it:

	- Setting up a Welsh locale, which can involve doing things like
	  generating a locale definition with localedef. Part of this is
	  working out whether you need to do it in the first place.
	  Another part of it is telling stuff to use that locale.

	- Finding out where to unpack the tarball so that programs will
	  find it.

Both of these can be distribution specific or indeed operating sytem
specific. I'm still amazed at how somebody turned up on IRC with a
screenshot of Evolution running on FreeBSD in Welsh the very day after
we did the work.

cymruarlinux.org.uk is coming along. Should be able to go public within
the next week or two.

> * Of "just" desktop and developer-libraries in Gnome, as of 11am
> we were at 62% for what-will-be-2.4 and 63% for Gnome 2.2. I'm
> not quite sure what's happened there, because I know there are
> some very large packages in what-will-be-2.4 which are not in 2.2.
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/status/gnome-2.2/essential.html
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/status/gnome-2.4/essential.html
> These are the groups which will be released as "Gnome 2.4". There's
> about 15,000 strings there, and we have done two thirds of them.

I'm not sure what's going on there. Maybe it's because 2.4's
developer-libs is more complete.

> * We have more "problem words" or multiple possible translations.
> Daf can explain. 

We've been wrestling with terminology a bit. Off the top of my head,
these are some of the things we've encountered:

	- We have switched over to using "penbwrdd" for "desktop". I
	  think this one is pretty much settled.

	- We are using "hoffterau" for "preferences". This is mainly
	  because I found it in Geiriadur yr Academi. Most occurrences
	  of "hoffiannau" have been replaced.

	- We are using "rhaglen" for "application" instead of
	  "cymhwysiad". This is mainly because I think it is a more
	  accessible term. Feedback we got at the Linux Awareness day
	  agrees with this. I've always thought that the distinction
	  between a program and an application is fairly arbitrary
	  anyway.

	- We are using "plygell" rather than "ffold(e)r" for "folder".

	- We have recently started using "sefydlu" rather than "gosod"
	  for "install". This is because "gosod" is also used for
	  "set" and "mount" and I thought it would be unhealthy for one
	  word to be so overloaded and I think "sefydlu" (or
	  "ymsefydlu") and "sefydliad" (or "ymsefydliad") have the right
	  connotations.

	- We are using "cadw" for "save" rather than "arbed".

	- We are using "system" rather than "cysawd". I think it is a
	  more accessible term.

	- We are using "cyfluniad" rather than "ffurfweddiad". Again,
	  this is partly based on Geiriadur yr Academi. I think it also
	  verbs better.

	- We are using "ffont" rather than "wynebfath" for "font".

	- I'm planning to start using "priodwedd" rather than
	  "priodoledd" for "property" (or was it attribute? maybe
	  both?).

None of these are set in stone. Feel free to read "I" for "We" above.
Some of the above was done in an experimental mood, to see how well it
worked. There are more terms which are problematic which I don't want to
go into right now, but I think I've got most of the ones that have come
up recently.

(I not have a working GNOME installation built from CVS for the purposes
of being able to better test the translations. It really is good for
spotting problems.)

> * And finally, Left To Do: 
> 
> For Gnome HEAD (will-be-2.4-as-of-September):
> 
> (image-viewer)		eog: De-fuzzy 10 strings. 

These are some tricky strings - I think I may need to email the
maintainer about some of them. Some of the strings can't be found in the
running program.

> (browser)		epiphany: In Kyfieithu now.
> (archiver tool)		file-roller: all 256 strings

As Chris mentioned, he has made a good start on this one.

> (calculator)		gcalctool: all 308 strings
> (login screen)		gdm2: 669 strings (there's three done :)) 

My copy has 54, remind me to commit that.

> (editor)		gedit: De-fuzzy 11 strings.

There are a few strings in here which need fixing upstream. I've sent a
patch in, but I don't know if it's going to be applied any time soon.

> (applets)		gnome-applets: more changes, argh (*)

I'm working on this one at the moment.

> (configuring stuff)	gnome-control-center: one string left.

That one's a pangram.

> (games)			gnome-games: 414 strings left (but more than half-done)

This one is also a priority.

> (panel)			gnome-panel: three strings left.

This one was also complete recently.

> (simple apps)		gnome-utils: de-fuzzy one string.

Didn't I complete that this morning?

> (NetMeeting clone)	gnomemeeting: all 672 strings.
> (on-screen keyboard)	gok: all 253 strings.
> (PDF viewer)		gpdf: all 95 strings.
> (create non-ascii chars)gucharmap: all 230 strings.
> (printing libs)		libgnomeprint: one string left.

Another pangram.

> (libs for procman)	libgtop: all 310 strings.
> (window manager)	metacity: 218 strings left (about half-ddone)
> (file manager)		nautilus: 719 strings left (about half-done)
> (process monitor)	procman: all 141 strings.
> (sound thingy)		totem: all 281 strings.

More of a video thingy, I think.

> There is also something called gnopernicus which is half of the
> accessibility framework: it's a speech thing and screen-reader.
> It had nearly 1000 strings, but I see it has been marked "don't
> translate" whilst the developers, UI people, and some of the
> translators get to gether and decide which of those 1000 strings
> actually get seen by users and so need translating. I _hope_
> it will shrink!

Lat I synced, it was down to 922 strings. Should go down further soon.
We probably won't touch this until after the string freeze.

> This may sound like a lot, but you should see the list which are
> finished. Note also that six of those are a matter of checking
> about 20 lines and adding three. In total. 

Ah, but the reason they haven't been done yet is that they are
especially translation-resistant strings! Rather than worry about them,
I think it's best to get on with other stuff. They're strings I feel
should be fixed upstream or need emailing the maintainer about for
clarification, or have something else troublesome about them.

> * gnome-applets is turning into a bug-bear. We have lots of
> translations of bits of it, but putting them all into one file
> and getting it into CVS before someone changes strings in it
> is like trying to carry water in a sieve. Roll on the string
> freeze (August the fourth) when that will be Not Allowed.

Yes, there have been lots of upstream changes to gnome-applets, and it
seems that there may be plenty more in the works.

> Anyway, that's where we are, and I think I have forgotten a
> few bits.

I can't think of anything you've missed.

We do need to decide what else we want to feed to Kyfieithu (besides
epiphany end evolution).

> Again, thanks to everyone involved. This is wonderful wonderful
> stuff. Kyfieithu proved an absolute boon: if Owain Green,
> Gruffudd Williams, Gareth Williams, Tom Llewelyn, Dafydd Jones
> or "Daniel" or any of the anonymous helpers are reading this,
> see what you did! 

Yes! Great work! This work is already being used by a few people!

It would be nice to know "Daniel"'s surname. He has been credited in at
least on place a "Daniel", quotes included!

-- 
Dafydd

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