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Today's Topics:
1. Re: present xcf as what it is, a gimp project file format (Paka)
2. Re: present xcf as what it is, a gimp project file format
(Jon Nordby)
3. Re: present xcf as what it is, a gimp proj
ect
file format (gg)
4. Re: present xcf as what it is, a gimp project file format (gg)
5. Re: present xcf as what it is, a gimp project file format
(Marco Ciampa)
6. Re: present xcf as what it is, a gimp project file format
(Marco Ciampa)
7. Re: present xcf as what it is, a gimp project file format
(Christopher Curtis)
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 13:46:12 -0400
From: Paka <ptilopteri gmail com>
To: gimp-developer-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] present xcf as what it is, a gimp
project file format
Message-ID: <20120616174612 GB30791 wahoo no-ip org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
* Nicolas Robidoux <nicolas robidoux gmail com> [06-16-12 12:55]:
> > - to really Save the contents of the file has to match what is
> > on the screen (save, quit, restart, open file: n
o
change--undo
> > history excepted). this is not just a good idea, this is the law.
> > breaking the law: usability blooper.
>
> Indeed, if "Save is lossless" is a law, "Save" has to be to XCF, and
> something else has to be used to "save" to any other format.
Maybe "export to"
> Nonetheless, I can't help but think that few people would buy a gun
> that makes it hard to shoot yourself in the foot.
>
> No matter how sensical the feature.
>
> Because most of us like to shoot first and ask questions later.
Perhaps YOU are not the "target audience".
--
(paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711
http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member
Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 19:58:02 +0200
From: Jon Nordby <jononor gmail com>
To: Nicolas Robidoux <nicolas robidoux gmail com>
Cc: gimp-developer mailing list <gimp-developer-list gnome org>
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] present xcf as what it is, a gimp
project file format
Message-ID:
<CAJeABUVvVjnEQhpj7ij=SeDCnT3Q8PvxnfDwgbLt-RRkR2hc8Q mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 16 June 2012 18:54, Nicolas Robidoux <nicolas robidoux gmail com> wrote:
>> - to really Save the contents of the file has to match what is
>> on the screen (save, quit, restart, open file: no change--undo
>> history excepted). this is not just a good idea, this is the law.
>> breaking the law: usability blooper.
>
> Indeed, if "Save is lossless" is a law, "Save" has to be to XCF, and
> something else has to be used to "save" to any other format.
>
> Nonetheless, I can't help but think that few people would buy a gun
> that makes it hard to shoot yourself in the foot.
>
> No matter how sensical the feature.
Most guns I know have the very sensible feature of a safety switch. It
does make it harder to accidentally shoot oneself in the foot, but I
have not heard very many people complain about it.
Most guns also have a shield in front of the trigger, and require a
substantial force to actually trigger. The ease of shooting oneself in
the foot is severely hampered by this, but again I do not see many
complain about it.
> Because most of us like t
o shoot
first and ask questions later.
I think that "better safe than sorry" is a more sensible approach. One
can in general not revive dead peop^Wdocuments.
--
Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:16:40 +0200
From: gg <gg catking net>
To: gimp-developer-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] present xcf as what it is, a gimp
project file format
Message-ID: <4FDCCD88 4070902 catking net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 06/16/12 19:58, Jon Nordby wrote:
> One
> can in general not revive dead peop^Wdocuments.
Which is why the don't give guns to children but top-end can be trusted
to understand that jpeg is lossy and png does not store layers.
It seems the "target user" argument is often cited here but they still
need to
be prevented form doing something "unsafe".
do professional top end uses really need idiot proof software?
Given the functionality and a GUI that is not obstructive to the job in
hand, I don't think many of the target audience will be shooting
ourselves in the foot.
And if that happens I expect they would be suitably embarrassed and
adult enough not to blame it on gimp.
/gg
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:02:26 +0200
From: gg <gg catking net>
To: gimp-developer-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] present xcf as what it is, a gimp
project file format
Message-ID: <4FDCCA32 4070903 catking net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
On 06/16/12 16:23, peter sikking wrote:
> Nicolas wrote:
>
>> Peter:
>> I think you misunderstood what gg is suggesting:<
br
/>>
> no I did not. I pointed out some facts that close many, many routes
> in this kind of reasoning. closed and done, yes.
I too thought you were misreading what I suggested.
>
> let me first make a statement:
>
> _every_ time (yes, that is around a hundred times now) that I
> see this kind of user feedback (that it is normal to open a
> non-GIMP file, do some edits, then save it to the same format)
> I start to think like interaction designers should:
>
> let?s assume he is right. make it ?just work.?
encouraging
>
> and every time I run into the same problems, that are giant
> usability bloopers.
>
> - to really Save the contents of the file has to match what is
> on the screen (save, quit, restart, open file: no change--undo
> history excepted). this is not just a good idea, this is the law.> breaking the law: usability blooper.
So now you are completely ignoring what I suggested and going off
somewhere else.
I specifically said that saving the file should be separate from saving
the entire working state of the image. Quite clearly this will not
preserve layers alpha etc, your "top end" target users ought be able to
cope with out with too much difficultly
Where did this save , restart, open : no change come from? Certainly not
what I outlined..
On the contrary I was suggesting a clear demarcation between saving the
edit state and saving back to the original format , with all that that
implies. That that should be both clear and logical within the interface
and that the user retains the choice of task in hand and not be forced
into what someone else thinks they "should" be doing.
>
> - this means that either all users would have to have
intimate
> knowledge of file formats to know why the option to save to them
> disappear as edits are done (usability blooper. bit of alpha is
> introduced? no more jpeg; any layers? no more png; paths and
> layers? tiff is still there???) or one is doing the whole export thing
> anyway, so what is the difference (exporting is not safe, remember?)
> where are the extra hoops?
>
> - the alternative would be to limit things:
Now you are deliberately constructing ridiculous scenarios that neither
I nor anyone else suggested in order to knock them down. This generally
known as a straw man argument.
>
>> - it is 100% impossible to arrange it for popular non-GIMP files
>> (png/jpeg/tiff) there would be a mode where one could Open one,
>> make edits within the limits of the file format, and write the
>> bits straight back to a file in the sa
me
format.
>
> a multi-personality application: complete usability disaster.
>
> and that is where it stops.
I agree, functionality "modes" are definitely to be avoided. You will
also note that I did not suggest any modal functionality to limit what
can be done with gimp.
Another straw man.
Perhaps before dismissing my suggestion, you could actually comment on
what I suggested rather than something else. It follows what Nicholas
suggested recently and seems to make sense to a number of others.
An image manipulation program ought to have a simple way to handle std
formats as someone said. I think this is what the gripes are about.
I have no preference as to actual name, whether it gets called "work" or
"project" is immaterial , it is the function that is important.
/gg
Message:
5
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:55:47 +0200
From: Marco Ciampa <ciampix libero it>
To: gimp-developer-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] present xcf as what it is, a gimp
project file format
Message-ID: <20120616185547.GA12368@ciampix-lap2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 08:02:26PM +0200, gg wrote:
[...]
> I have no preference as to actual name, whether it gets called
> "work" or "project" is immaterial , it is the function that is
> important.
To add gasoline/petrol to fire: :-)
Thougth "work file" for xcf could be more precise than "project file"
since in a "project" I think could be involved more than one file,
instead (I think, correct me if I am wrong) that xcf will always be a
one file "project".
so be "workfile"! :-)
Import->insert into GIMP xcf workfile
Open->open GIMP xcf wor
kfile
(now also create a workfile without saving it and import the image in it immediatly)
Export->extract info depending on format into the format chosen, eventually discarding some data/info
Save->save GIMP workfile
I expect in a project file to save (more than in a workfile)
1) history
2) multiple work files
Peace ... :-)
bye
--
Marco Ciampa
+--------------------+
| Linux User #78271 |
| FSFE fellow #364 |
+--------------------+
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 20:58:13 +0200
From: Marco Ciampa <ciampix libero it>
To: gimp-developer-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] present xcf as what it is, a gimp
project file format
Message-ID: <20120616185812.GA12477@ciampix-lap2>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Omissis:
On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at
08:55:47PM +0200, Marco Ciampa wrote:
> 1) history
^ undo
--
Marco Ciampa
+--------------------+
| Linux User #78271 |
| FSFE fellow #364 |
+--------------------+
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:28:35 -0400
From: Christopher Curtis <ccurtis0 gmail com>
To: peter sikking <peter mmiworks net>
Cc: gimp-developer-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] present xcf as what it is, a gimp
project file format
Message-ID:
<CAPPMeE=0bAZfrvk2-XBQMAtTaKJ0yc4-bizRBxrNfw4J9iYpYA mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 12:33 PM, peter sikking <peter mmiworks net> wrote:
I think you are very selective there what conventions surround Import.
> simply importing a an excel sheet into a non-ms program (open office,
> ap
ple?s
numbers) comes with a host of fears and promises.
>
And GIMP unnecessarily continues this tradition. If you open/import an
indexed image, GIMP goes into this weird "Indexed" mode that makes editing
all but impossible. This is very inconsistent with the asserted mental
model.
And while I prefer having Export, one workflow is broken rather severely by
this model: it is no longer possible to Import->Edit->Close->Export. The
flow Import->Edit->Close-Save is available, but this is a fast flow that
likely does not need to Save at all.
Chris
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