Re: [Usability] Close buttons on instant-apply dialogs

[Christian Rose <menthos menthos com>]

tis 2002-01-01 klockan 23.38 skrev Reinout van Schouwen:
> > This has been discussed many times before. The window manager doesn't
> > have to provide a close button; it doesn't have to provide any buttons
> > at all. Even if it has one it doesn't have to be easily recognizable as
> 
> But it does have to provide a way to close a window;

That way doesn't have to be a way that is obvious to mere humans.


> and if the user wishes to install such a wm then it's up to him. GNOME
> doesn't have to accomodate each and every weird wm in existence.

Usually more than one window manager is shipped with an operating
system, and the GNOME control center will happily list them all as valid
options. Besides, this is not just an issue about window managers, but
also about Sawfish themes, as I've already said. Users are expected to
be able to change themes and customize the look, but this might also
change the uability in many ways. I'm not saying that each theme should
be fixed, just that we should work with broken/strange themes in mind,
because there always will be, and not making the dialogs harder to use
depending on what the current theme happens to be.

GNOME is different in this aspect (that a theme change in the default
window manager may also change the functionality, and usually does), so
this makes the situation different than that for Mac OS or Windows.


> BTW, do you know the
> windows utility WindowBlinds? It's a very popular piece of software that
> lets you theme winXX titlebars and such. Some users like to use themes and
> some are scared to change anything; those who like to change themes won't
> have difficulty finding back the titlebar close button. (unsubstantiated
> claim, I know, but people who like to tweak things usually aren't afraid
> of poking around until they have the behaviour they want.)

There's no need to make it more difficult than it has to be. Usability
is (to me) usually about making interfaces where the user *doesn't*
necessarily have to poke around to figure out. In this case, not
providing any dialog close button is likely to have the opposite effect
of that for the users that don't use the window manager buttons.


> > Note that I'm not saying that title bar buttons aren't useful (they
> > certainly are), I'm just saying that some users simply don't use them,
> > and are not used to use them, even if they know that they exist, and are
> > usually terribly confused by any special dialogs that don't leave them
> > any "obvious" way to close them. I've witnessed that many times during
> > computer classes.
> 
> Do you use StarOffice? If you do, you'll know the Style and Navigator
> utility windows. Are you saying those should have an extra Close button
> next to the titlebar one?

Staroffice's MDI windows, dialogs and palettes don't use my window
manager, they use Staroffice's own title bar thingie, which AFAIK can't
be changed. Thus, the problems of switching themes or window managers
and different functionality isn't applicable at all.

Yes, I would in fact very much like to still see a close button added to
that dialog. One of the reasons is that the title bar close button is
very, very small and can be hard to hit for people with motion
disabilities. That tiny button title bar button is an accessibility
problem IMHO.

The dialog you're quoting has other accessibility problems too... it
seems to be lacking keyboard navigation completely.


> > Now you're exaggerating. It doesn't slow down the interface for "every
> > other user". On the contrary it gives a lot of users a familiar way to
> > close the dialog, because they are looking for dialog buttons.
> 
> "familiar". Gregory has already shown that people with a Mac or CUA
> background probably aren't familiar with such a button. It is impossible
> for total beginners to be familiar with everything. This comes down to
> trying to make GNOME consistent with Windows' inconsistencies, which is
> a goal you will never reach.

People coming from a Mac background probably won't expect a simple theme
change to reorder/remove buttons either. GNOME was designed from the
beginning to be pretty much window manager/theme agnostic and that is
what we have to consider and base UI decisions on.


> > Also, a dialog close button gives keyboard-only users an obvious way to
> > close the window without having to resort to window manager shortcuts,
> > which also have to be remembered to be useful. Clearly a dialog close
> > button is a help to accessibility.
> 
> yup, let's invite the GAP to this debate.. :))

I'll do that.


Christian