Re: Hi folks (and some random thoughts)

[Brian Crescimanno <darksheer fotographix com>]

On 09 Aug 2001 23:18:17 -0700, Adam Elman wrote:
> Brian, folks --
> 
> First of all, we are definitely including standard keybindings, 
> keyboard shortcuts, and standard menus in the mini-guidelines, at 
> least in some form.  (I talked to Brian a bit about this on IRC.)
> 
> I do have some opinions on the below, as Brian mentioned in his followup...
> 
> My main thought here is to note that, as many of us have said many 
> times before, just because Microsoft has spent millions of dollars on 
> usability testing doesn't mean that they spend a whole lot of effort 
> on designing useful and usable software in the first place. 
> Usability testing on a lousy design results in a slightly less lousy 
> design.
> 
> This is not to say that all of Microsoft's designs are lousy, of 
> course.  But I think it's really important to approach these things 
> with a critical eye, starting from the user's end goals and working 
> inward, rather than simply saying "well, Microsoft did it and they've 
> been very successful, so it must work..."  I also don't mean to 
> single Brian out here; he definitely makes some good points.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statements.  However, I think it is
also important that we don't single some of the things MS has done out
as "bad" simply because they are Microsoft ideas.  I just want to ensure
that the "best possible" usability is achieved, and in order to do so,
we can draw on many sources for ideas, MS included.

> At 7:21 PM -0400 8/9/01, Brian Crescimanno wrote:
> >One of the main points of lack of usability is the current "bolt-on"
> >feel of Nautilus and a browser.  Windows has seen success because the
> >file manager and browser were integrated into the desktop.  Not only
> >that, they were integrated with each other.  I think one of the main
> >goals of the usability project, and of the Nautilus project as well,
> >should be to really get Nautilus up to speed as an all purpose file
> >manager...integrating it fully with mozilla rather than providing
> >minimal support.
> 
> I would have to disagree somewhat with this one.  There is a definite 
> cognitive difference between managing local files (and, for that 
> matter, networked files such as those found on an FTP or WebDav 
> server) and viewing a rendered HTML web page and interacting with 
> web-based apps through things like forms.  There are many operations 
> which are similar, but I think the user will tend to see them as 
> separate.
> 
> As an example: in a file manager window, you expect to see icons and 
> captions that you can manipulate directly.  In a web browser window, 
> you expect to see rendered HTML pages, form elements, etc. that you 
> can click on.
> 
> There are certainly parallel operations, and you certainly want some 
> level of integration and a lot of similarity between the two apps, 
> but I think it's good for them to remain separate interfaces as far 
> as the user is concerned.

Having discussed this further with Adam, I must say I have to agree with
his points on the operations being quite separate.  Perhaps, then, our
goal should be to enhance both galeon and Nautilus in their own rights.

> >Also, the fuctionality of the file manager needs to extend down into all
> >file management realms of the Desktop.  For example, when you attempt to
> >open a file from an application, a window that looks like it's part of
> >the file management system should open.  This window should also have
> basically the full functionality of the file manager
> [...]
> 
> I'm also not sure this is the right way to go either, although it 
> admittedly makes sense.
> 
> I'm really fond of the OS X way of doing this, which actually 
> _attaches_ the "Save" panel to the document window with which it is 
> associated, making it clear which document is being saved.  I think 
> that might be more important than allowing full management features. 
> But I'm not sure.

I haven't actually had a chance to have a look at the way OSX handles it
yet.  I will take a look though and see what I think.  I definately like
the interface which Christian discussed in his reply (I suggest everyone
go take a look at the screenshots so we're all on the same page).  

Anyway...I meant to go to sleep 2 hours ago...I think I'm gonna actually
do this now. :)

Brian