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Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress in accessibility

I'm not quite sure if you're directing that at me (Dan) or not.  But quickly, Python as a language is 
accessible but its whitespace dependence makes it more of a challenge.  Python, the toolset, is not 
completely accessible.  Standard python ships with some GUI tools for exploring the language and I believe is 
a simple IDE.  It is written in TkInter which I have never found a way to make it even remotely accessible.  
The closest library was Tka11y and it was abandon years ago and no longer functions.  I actually like Tk from 
my sighted days and would like a simple yet quick GUI be available to a larger group of users and developers.

        Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: chaltain outlook com <chaltain outlook com> 
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 12:23 AM
To: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel panix com>; Dan Miner <dminer84 yahoo com>
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: RE: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress in accessibility

I'm curious, what do you mean by the statement " If all of python ever got accessible"? Python is a 
programming language, and as far as I know, it's completely accessible. Are you referring to some libraries 
you can access through Python?

--
Christopher (AKA CJ)
Chaltain at Outlook


-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list <orca-list-bounces gnome org> On Behalf Of Jude 
DaShiell
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 7:12 PM
To: Dan Miner <dminer84 yahoo com>
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress 
in accessibility

If all of python ever got accessible developers could make websites 
with it and replace javascript completely.
Replacing javascript whenever and where it happens with something like 
python components would be a benefit to more than the accessibility community too.
Earlier when the States couldn't get the unemployment payments out it 
was wrongly claimed Cobol was responsible.  It turns out javascript 
was responsible, the code hadn't been written well enough and the 
cobol that was there and running in the background was running just 
fine.  The cobol code had been tweaked for years to run as fast as it 
could and in many cases that meant properly structured programming.  
Maybe Cobol needs to develop web components if Python cannot wipe out javascript.



On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, Dan Miner via orca-list wrote:



Yes, I am interested in KDE being accessible.  I had pretty much 
gave up Qt ever becoming accessible by version 4.  Well, it 
surprised me when stuff

started happening in the later part of 4.8.  I realize this is an orca 
list but I would love to see more cross platform GUI frameworks with 
solid accessibility for Windows, OSS, and Mac as well mobile platforms even should that happen.




I am trying to learn enough to give a shot at getting Tk from Tcl 
(and thus tkintern) to have cross platform accessibility.  There is 
so many quick &

dirty GUIs which is written with that toolkit which will never be 
accessible.  Just imagine if the standard python GUI tools were 
accessible across its supported platforms (e.g., IDLE).




                Dan



From: orca-list <orca-list-bounces gnome org> On Behalf Of chrys
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 2:05 PM
To: Peter V?gner <pvagner pvagner tk>
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes 
progress in accessibility



Howdy Peter,



well hopefully it should not take too long til the menu gets merged. 
maybe you

can try it out then. i use X11 docker for testing using an developer 
version of KDE Neon docker container.




      I haven't discovered how to access and use widgets aka 
plasmoids such as

plasma-pa so far.


well yea, you got the point. you can set a shortcut to focus active 
the plasmoids, but those are not assigned by default (but for the 
menu). you need to assign the shortcut first. so there is a way to access them.

but you need to access them first lol. some kind of chicken egg issue. 
i currently try to write a accessibility like switcher for the 
desktop, or integrate it into the krunner search, maybe that's a way 
to fix the issue. maybe the default plasmoids for volume, network, 
Bluetooth and stuff should have an shortcut by default as well.




overall i see there is some interest by users to have KDE accessible :).





Am 26.12.20 um 21:42 schrieb Peter V?gner:

      Hello,



      I have finally installed and actually tryed out plasma desktop.



      I haven't yet managed to build this new reworked kickoff as it 
requires

rebuilding more packages besides plasma-desktop but I'm impressed so far.




      If we are calling xfce as being enough accessible so it's 
viable then KDE

plasma is at least on a similar level if not better.




      Krunner is awesome, the edit field and the autocomplete is 
fully accessible

and works great.


      Desktop is working fine.

      Kwin alt+tab switcher is great and awesome.

      I haven't discovered how to access and use widgets aka 
plasmoids such as

plasma-pa so far.


      But still with xfce and pure window managers such as ratpoison 
we don't

really have this functionality so it's just my curiosity.






      Greetings



      Peter



      D?a 26. 12. 2020 o 16:59 chrys nap?sal(a):

      Howdy Peter,


            However I can't find the latest accessibility related 
commits on the kde

github.


      The pull request doesnt land yet. it brings more than 
accessibility. its a

complete rework of kickoff launcher

      you can find the request here:

https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-desktop/-/merge_requests/258


            Also what about the desktop it-self?
            Is dolphin showing the desktop icons?
            How much accessible it is?


      the workspace is accessible ( i completed this task a couple 
of month ago

and it is already shipped by latest Plasma).


      No dolphin is not drawing the desktop icons here. its done by 
the plasma

shell itself.




            KDE desktop has nice keyboard shortcuts for example 
alt+f1 to bring up the launcher,

      by the way, the launcher "Krunner" is already fully accessible 
and is even

more than a run dialog for applications. it almost implements a search 
for anything like gnome-shell or

      gnome-do. i realy enjoy this part very well. until the rework 
of the main

menu "kickoff" lands, it might be the only accessible way to start 
applications in accessible way by

      default (i already made the 2 alternatives layouts what are 
shipped by

default for kickoff accessible some months ago, but this need sighted 
assistance to chenge the alternative

      layout AFAIK)

      IMO KDE offers a lot of power i wanna have from a modern 
desktop

environment. and fun fact... after a very quick test, it also has a 
similar or even smaller memory foodprint than

      Mate or Gnome here on my machine.

      cheers chrys

      Am 26.12.20 um 16:24 schrieb Peter V?gner:

            Hello,

            I'll be testing KDE hopefully tomorrow.
            I haven't yet installed kde apps just bare minimum kde-desktop.

            As far as I can see kickoff is part of the kde-desktop package.
            However I can't find the latest accessibility related 
commits on the kde

github.

            Or are these changes a few months old and the video you 
have linked to

is new?


            Also what about the desktop it-self?
            Is dolphin showing the desktop icons?
            How much accessible it is?
            KDE desktop has nice keyboard shortcuts for example 
alt+f1 to bring up

the launcher, alt+f2 for run command, ctrl+f12 to show the desktop and 
many more.

            Interesting one is ctrl+alt+a show the window demanding 
action. If this

is working as advertised, it might be a nice accessibility feature by it-self.

            See here for Common Keyboard Shortcuts - 
https://docs.kde.org/trunk5/en/applications/fundamentals/kbd.html


            Greetings

            Peter

            26. 12. 2020 12:38:54 Linux A11y <chrys linux-a11y org>:


                  Howdy,

                  Well KMail should be accessible (as it uses 
chromium to show HTML

content, what got very recently a11y support), dolphin KDEs 
filemanager should also have

                  basic accessibility, so i would say the state isn?t here that bad at all.
                  Kate and konsole still has some issues, but its a WIP.

                  Making KDE accessible is less a try to have just 
another desktop

alternative, but its attempt to get its huge developer base understand 
how important

                  accessibility is.  This should lead to an overall 
accessible application

landscape.

                  I assume its wrong as small community like a11y to 
try to fix all the

issues by our own, but instead show the developers of the software how 
a11y works

                  and what fits the requirements.
                  Latest success of this  attempt but the launcher 
is elisa, the KDE

music player what got full accessibility without any attempt to force it.


                  KDE has IMO an great, friendly, open minded 
community we should

definitely get on board to make not only plasma but all KDE software 
or QT /software

                  accessibility over all.

                  So things working out very great, also if it still 
needs more time and

work to iron out.


                  Cheers chrys


                        Am 26.12.2020 um 09:07 schrieb Peter V?gner 
via orca-list <orca-

list gnome org>:


                        Hello,

                        QT accessibility needs more adoption so it 
can be improved

further.

                        Most of the GTK apps feel more polished but 
the trend is that

accessibility on gnome is slowly degrading.


                        For example yesterday I've tried krusader a 
KDE file manager for

a spin and I am impressed what I've got.

                        It's twin panel file manager similar to what 
Total commander is

on windows it even has some nice features inspired from that such as

                        integrated ftp / webdav client, tabs, multi 
rename tool,

synchronize directories and similar. It also includes configurable 
file actions and

                        keyboard shortcuts.
                        Some parts are accessible by using flat 
review, a few buttons are

not labbelled but other than this it's working amazingly well.

                        What is so special about it that file tree 
widget is super super

responsive when comparing it with all the GTK based file managers such 
as

                        nautilus or pcman fm. And also incremental 
search is working

great too.

                        It is working like a list combined with a 
tree view. Right arrow key

expands folders and left arrow key jumps up a level. When using it it

                        feels similar to browsing a popup menu. It's 
really damn fast and

super responsive.

                        Multi selection needs a11y improvements.
                        Also popup menus need a bit of tweaking as 
it is not clear wich

entries are menu items and which ones are submenus. But still it's 
very usable

                        and in my opinions KDE developers need to 
hear some positive

comments as a reward so they can keep up their great work.


                        Also remember plasma mobile is powerfull 
linux mobile

environment and one day we might hopefully see it in action once we 
have accessible

                        touch input support.

                        Greetings

                        Peter

                        26. 12. 2020 2:55:49 Devin Prater <r d t prater gmail com>:


                              I'd rather wait until the KDE apps, 
like Kate and KMail, and all

that are made accessible, but yeah I'm very glad we'll have

                              another option, as long as the KDE 
folks keep it up. QT still

doesn't feel as great as GTK, but Mumble is a QT app and still works

                              amazingly well, so maybe it's just 
general QT developers not

taking advantage of QT accessibility.



                                    On 12/25/20 9:27 AM, Jason White via orca-list wrote:

                                    On 12/25/20 5:17 AM, Peter V?gner wrote:

                                          Once notification area aka 
system tray / top pannel

whatever alternative there is on the KDE desktop gets

                                          a11y support, it would be about time to move to KDE.

                                    I understand from a recent 
podcast that the system tray

code in Plasma is being rewritten. I don't know of any

                                    accessibility work on it, however.

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