GNOME.org
 

Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress in accessibility

I appreciate the enthusiasm but Tk is a Desktop-based graphical user interface toolkit as well as TkInter 
which is a mostly thin layer of bindings to other languages like Python and Perl.  These languages are being 
used for web programming but it is a backend role on servers rather than in the browser itself.  Tk would not 
be typically involved in these cases.  JavaScript has blurred  the lines quite a bit over the years but the 
inaccessibility problems you allude isn't strictly JavaScript's fault.  It is developers using non-semantic 
HTML constructs, adding JavaScript for appearance and UI functionality.  However, it is complex to replace a 
UI component and so naturally they usually get it very wrong.

As for the rest, all I can say it is human nature to deflect blame.  *smiley*

        Dan

-----Original Message-----
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel panix com> 
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 6:12 PM
To: Dan Miner <dminer84 yahoo com>
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress in accessibility

If all of python ever got accessible developers could make websites with it and replace javascript completely.
Replacing javascript whenever and where it happens with something like python components would be a benefit 
to more than the accessibility community too.
Earlier when the States couldn't get the unemployment payments out it was wrongly claimed Cobol was 
responsible.  It turns out javascript was responsible, the code hadn't been written well enough and the cobol 
that was there and running in the background was running just fine.  The cobol code had been tweaked for 
years to run as fast as it could and in many cases that meant properly structured programming.  Maybe Cobol 
needs to develop web components if Python cannot wipe out javascript.



On Sat, 26 Dec 2020, Dan Miner via orca-list wrote:



Yes, I am interested in KDE being accessible.  I had pretty much gave 
up Qt ever becoming accessible by version 4.  Well, it surprised me when stuff started happening in the 
later part of 4.8.  I realize this is an orca list but I would love to see more cross platform GUI 
frameworks with solid accessibility for Windows, OSS, and Mac as well mobile platforms even should that 
happen.

 

I am trying to learn enough to give a shot at getting Tk from Tcl (and 
thus tkintern) to have cross platform accessibility.  There is so many quick & dirty GUIs which is written 
with that toolkit which will never be accessible.  Just imagine if the standard python GUI tools were 
accessible across its supported platforms (e.g., IDLE).

 

                Dan

 

From: orca-list <orca-list-bounces gnome org> On Behalf Of chrys
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2020 2:05 PM
To: Peter V?gner <pvagner pvagner tk>
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] KDE Plasma Launcher "Kickoff" makes progress 
in accessibility

 

Howdy Peter,

 

well hopefully it should not take too long til the menu gets merged. maybe you can try it out then. i use 
X11 docker for testing using an developer version of KDE Neon docker container.

 

      I haven't discovered how to access and use widgets aka plasmoids such as plasma-pa so far.

well yea, you got the point. you can set a shortcut to focus active 
the plasmoids, but those are not assigned by default (but for the 
menu). you need to assign the shortcut first. so there is a way to access them. but you need to access them 
first lol. some kind of chicken egg issue. i currently try to write a accessibility like switcher for the 
desktop, or integrate it into the krunner search, maybe that's a way to fix the issue. maybe the default 
plasmoids for volume, network, Bluetooth and stuff should have an shortcut by default as well.

 

overall i see there is some interest by users to have KDE accessible :).

 

 

Am 26.12.20 um 21:42 schrieb Peter V?gner:

      Hello,

       

      I have finally installed and actually tryed out plasma desktop.

       

      I haven't yet managed to build this new reworked kickoff as it requires rebuilding more packages 
besides plasma-desktop but I'm impressed so far.

       

      If we are calling xfce as being enough accessible so it's viable then KDE plasma is at least on a 
similar level if not better.

       

      Krunner is awesome, the edit field and the autocomplete is fully accessible and works great.

      Desktop is working fine.

      Kwin alt+tab switcher is great and awesome.

      I haven't discovered how to access and use widgets aka plasmoids such as plasma-pa so far.

      But still with xfce and pure window managers such as ratpoison we don't really have this 
functionality so it's just my curiosity.

       

       

      Greetings

       

      Peter

       

      D?a 26. 12. 2020 o 16:59 chrys nap?sal(a):

      Howdy Peter,


            However I can't find the latest accessibility related commits on the kde github.

      The pull request doesnt land yet. it brings more than accessibility. its a complete rework of kickoff 
launcher
      you can find the request here:
      
https://invent.kde.org/plasma/plasma-desktop/-/merge_requests/258


            Also what about the desktop it-self?
            Is dolphin showing the desktop icons?
            How much accessible it is?


      the workspace is accessible ( i completed this task a couple of month ago and it is already shipped 
by latest Plasma).

      No dolphin is not drawing the desktop icons here. its done by the plasma shell itself.



            KDE desktop has nice keyboard shortcuts for example alt+f1 
to bring up the launcher,

      by the way, the launcher "Krunner" is already fully accessible and is even more than a run dialog for 
applications. it almost implements a search for anything like gnome-shell or
      gnome-do. i realy enjoy this part very well. until the rework of the main menu "kickoff" lands, it 
might be the only accessible way to start applications in accessible way by
      default (i already made the 2 alternatives layouts what are shipped by default for kickoff accessible 
some months ago, but this need sighted assistance to chenge the alternative
      layout AFAIK)

      IMO KDE offers a lot of power i wanna have from a modern desktop environment. and fun fact... after a 
very quick test, it also has a similar or even smaller memory foodprint than
      Mate or Gnome here on my machine.

      cheers chrys

      Am 26.12.20 um 16:24 schrieb Peter V?gner:

            Hello,

            I'll be testing KDE hopefully tomorrow.
            I haven't yet installed kde apps just bare minimum kde-desktop.

            As far as I can see kickoff is part of the kde-desktop package.
            However I can't find the latest accessibility related commits on the kde github.
            Or are these changes a few months old and the video you have linked to is new?

            Also what about the desktop it-self?
            Is dolphin showing the desktop icons?
            How much accessible it is?
            KDE desktop has nice keyboard shortcuts for example alt+f1 to bring up the launcher, alt+f2 for 
run command, ctrl+f12 to show the desktop and many more.
            Interesting one is ctrl+alt+a show the window demanding action. If this is working as 
advertised, it might be a nice accessibility feature by it-self.
            See here for Common Keyboard Shortcuts - 
https://docs.kde.org/trunk5/en/applications/fundamentals/kbd.html


            Greetings

            Peter

            26. 12. 2020 12:38:54 Linux A11y <chrys linux-a11y org>:


                  Howdy,

                  Well KMail should be accessible (as it uses chromium to show HTML content, what got very 
recently a11y support), dolphin KDEs filemanager should also have
                  basic accessibility, so i would say the state isn?t here that bad at all.
                  Kate and konsole still has some issues, but its a WIP.

                  Making KDE accessible is less a try to have just another desktop alternative, but its 
attempt to get its huge developer base understand how important
                  accessibility is.  This should lead to an overall accessible application landscape.
                  I assume its wrong as small community like a11y to try to fix all the issues by our own, 
but instead show the developers of the software how a11y works
                  and what fits the requirements.
                  Latest success of this  attempt but the launcher is elisa, the KDE music player what got 
full accessibility without any attempt to force it.

                  KDE has IMO an great, friendly, open minded community we should definitely get on board 
to make not only plasma but all KDE software or QT /software
                  accessibility over all.

                  So things working out very great, also if it still needs more time and work to iron out.

                  Cheers chrys


                        Am 26.12.2020 um 09:07 schrieb Peter V?gner via orca-list <orca-list gnome org>:

                        Hello,

                        QT accessibility needs more adoption so it can be improved further.
                        Most of the GTK apps feel more polished but the trend is that accessibility on 
gnome is slowly degrading.

                        For example yesterday I've tried krusader a KDE file manager for a spin and I am 
impressed what I've got.
                        It's twin panel file manager similar to what Total commander is on windows it even 
has some nice features inspired from that such as
                        integrated ftp / webdav client, tabs, multi rename tool, synchronize directories 
and similar. It also includes configurable file actions and
                        keyboard shortcuts.
                        Some parts are accessible by using flat review, a few buttons are not labbelled but 
other than this it's working amazingly well.
                        What is so special about it that file tree widget is super super responsive when 
comparing it with all the GTK based file managers such as
                        nautilus or pcman fm. And also incremental search is working great too.
                        It is working like a list combined with a tree view. Right arrow key expands 
folders and left arrow key jumps up a level. When using it it
                        feels similar to browsing a popup menu. It's really damn fast and super responsive.
                        Multi selection needs a11y improvements.
                        Also popup menus need a bit of tweaking as it is not clear wich entries are menu 
items and which ones are submenus. But still it's very usable
                        and in my opinions KDE developers need to hear some positive comments as a reward 
so they can keep up their great work.

                        Also remember plasma mobile is powerfull linux mobile environment and one day we 
might hopefully see it in action once we have accessible
                        touch input support.

                        Greetings

                        Peter

                        26. 12. 2020 2:55:49 Devin Prater <r d t prater gmail com>:


                              I'd rather wait until the KDE apps, like Kate and KMail, and all that are 
made accessible, but yeah I'm very glad we'll have
                              another option, as long as the KDE folks keep it up. QT still doesn't feel as 
great as GTK, but Mumble is a QT app and still works
                              amazingly well, so maybe it's just general QT developers not taking advantage 
of QT accessibility.


                                    On 12/25/20 9:27 AM, Jason White via orca-list wrote:

                                    On 12/25/20 5:17 AM, Peter V?gner wrote:

                                          Once notification area aka system tray / top pannel whatever 
alternative there is on the KDE desktop gets
                                          a11y support, it would be about time to move to KDE.

                                    I understand from a recent podcast that the system tray code in Plasma 
is being rewritten. I don't know of any
                                    accessibility work on it, however.

                                    _______________________________________________
                                    orca-list mailing list
                                    orca-list gnome org
                                    https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
                                    Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
                                    Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
                                    GNOME Universal Access guide: 
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html

                        _______________________________________________
                        orca-list mailing list
                        orca-list gnome org
                        https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
                        Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
                        Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
                        GNOME Universal Access guide: 
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
[Date Prev][Date Next]   [Thread Prev][Thread Next]   [Thread Index] [Date Index] [Author Index]