Re: [orca-list] Left click recurrnt problem

[Brandon Tyson <brandongold98 gmail com>]

Hello,

Does this mean that if I run Orca normally that it will be debugging
this, or is this only if I set the debug level to something other than
off?

Thanks,

Brandon

On 7/8/19, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs igalia com> wrote:
> I plan to leave what's in place for mouse clicking as it is.
> --joanie
>
> On 7/8/19 2:25 PM, Brandon Tyson via orca-list wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > There was mentioning of some additional debugging for mouse related
> > things in Orca now.
> > Are these still in place, or is this just a temporary thing? On my
> > system simulated clicks with flat review work fine.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> > On 6/28/19, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL <jpmengual hypra fr> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Le 28/06/2019 à 15:26, Joanmarie Diggs a écrit :
> > > > Hey Jean-Philippe.
> > > >
> > > > Where is the "live" button? If the label is a french word, I'll need to
> > > > know that.
> > >
> > > Here is the log of what I do:
> > > https://framabin.org/p/?d5d8a5c9ca96d2d3#YgsfJ4y5lPTZVdDuYqD+d/COrwx+ps7JqTWQ3t4QE8Q=
> > >
> > > Actually, when you move the flat review on the page, you have, among
> > > others buttons "écouter" "édito" "live" "podcast".
> > > One line with a list of links without labels. Then this list of buttons.
> > > Orca displays exactly "live live" "édito édito" etc.
> > >
> > > Note that until recently the left click worked, hence my feedback.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Having said that, there is a difference in how braille works versus how
> > > > flat-review clicking works. Personally, I think it should be the same,
> > > > but I think braille should do what mouse click does; not the other way
> > > > around. Let me explain:
> > > >
> > > > What Orca's mouse click does is synthesize a mouse click as if you
> > > > yourself grabbed the mouse, moved the pointer over the object, and
> > > > pressed and released the specified button. That way -- assuming the
> > > > synthesized click was possible via AT-SPI2 -- you get the same result
> > > > as
> > > > a sighted user would get. Achieving the same result as a sighted user.
> > > >
> > > > In contrast, what the braille click does is see if the action interface
> > > > is implemented. And if it is, it uses it to perform the first action in
> > > > the list regardless of what that action might be. Why on earth does it
> > > > do that? Well, the decision predates me. My theory, however, is that
> > > > the
> > > > decision went something like this: If we have an action, it's probably
> > > > the one we want, so why not? The thing is, it could easily not be the
> > > > one we want. Here's the deal with actions, as they currently exist in
> > > > ATK/AT-SPI2:
> > > >
> > > > * The name of the action can be anything; there is not a pre-determined
> > > >    set of possible values to which the application/toolkit is
> > > >    constrained.
> > > > * Some applications and toolkits localize their action names; some
> > > >    don't.
> > > > * There is no rule dictating what actions must appear, nor in what
> > > >    order they appear.
> > > > * Hopefully using the action interface will work; but maybe it will
> > > >    and maybe it won't. It depends on the application/toolkit handling
> > > >    that AtkAction function correctly.
> > > >
> > > > Another interesting scenario, though it requires a bit of background
> > > > first: In order to make longdesc information accessible via screen
> > > > reader, Gecko created their own special action called "showlongdesc".
> > > > For the average image which has a longdesc attribute, this action is
> > > > the
> > > > first action. With this background in mind, let's say you have an image
> > > > with a longdesc inside a link. Orca thinks you're on the image, and it
> > > > presents it as "foo image link" to let you know that pressing return
> > > > will follow the link. What should happen when you use the braille
> > > > routing key? Follow the link or activate the longdesc? If you said
> > > > follow the link, then you may be disappointed because for braille
> > > > clicking, Orca prefers the first action and the first and only action
> > > > on
> > > > the image in this example would be showlongdesc.
> > > >
> > > > Given all of the above, I have no intention of making Orca's
> > > > flat-review
> > > > left click feature default to doing anything other than a left click.
> > > > Doing so would, in some instances, be seen as a regression; not a bug
> > > > fix. As a result, there will potentially be a difference between what
> > > > happens when you braille click versus flat review click -- unless, of
> > > > course, I make braille do an actual click as well rather than simply
> > > > hoping and trusting that the first action is the correct action. (I'm
> > > > guessing you don't want me to make such a change, but if I'm wrong,
> > > > please let me know.)
> > > >
> > > > That said, what I'm considering doing is the following: Based on your
> > > > debug.out, Orca does know that things seem to have failed. As a result,
> > > > Orca could fall back on looking for an action called "click"
> > > > (unlocalized). And if it finds that unlocalized action, it will give it
> > > > a try. Give me a little while to put that in place and I'll follow-up
> > > > in
> > > > a new email.
> > >
> > > ok, yes it seems a good balance
> > >
> > > > Do please keep in mind that all of this is necessary due to 1) poor
> > > > accessibility on the part of the application and 2) something weird
> > > > seems to be going on with your system that's preventing the normal
> > > > synthesized click from working. Trying to address both at the problems'
> > > > source would be a good idea, because Orca might not find a "click"
> > > > action to fall back on for every last thing you need it to....
> > > >
> > > > Sorry for the long message, but I hope it gives you a better
> > > > understanding of why braille clicking works differently sometimes and
> > > > why I don't plan on duplicating that behavior for the flat-review
> > > > click.
> > >
> > > Yes many thanks for it, it is helpful.
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > >
> > > > --joanie
> > > >
> > > > On 6/28/19 8:01 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
> > > > > Hi Joanie,
> > > > >
> > > > > Beyond the particular case of TB, which seems to present very strange
> > > > > behaviour, here is another example where the left click does not work
> > > > > with Orca while it works in braille:
> > > > > 1. In Firefox, open https://la1337.com/
> > > > > 2. Here again, many things inaccessible. With the flat review, go to
> > > > > "Live" button.
> > > > > 3. Left click via the flat review. Nothing happens while in braille,
> > > > > if I click with routine, the window opens to run the live streaming.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope it is more helpful
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > signature_jp_2
> > > > > Logo Hypra     JEAN-PHILIPPE MENGUAL
> > > > > DIRECTEUR TECHNIQUE ET QUALITÉ
> > > > > 28, rue de la chapelle, 75018, Paris
> > > > > Tel : +339 72 49 76 75 <tel:+33972497675>
> > > > > <tel:+33676349337>
> > > > > support hypra fr <mailto:support hypra fr>
> > > > > www.hypra.fr <http://www.hypra.fr/>
> > > > > Facebook Hypra <https://www.facebook.com/hyprasoftware/> Twitter Hypra
> > > > > <https://twitter.com/Hypra_> Linkedin Jean-Philippe
> > > > > <https://fr.linkedin.com/in/jean-philippe-mengual-800133135>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Le 28/06/2019 à 13:50, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :
> > > > > > Le 28/06/2019 à 12:36, Joanmarie Diggs a écrit :
> > > > > > > That's really strange that the real mouse doesn't work at all. Does
> > > > > > > the real mouse work on other things?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes it works, I'm using Thunderbird daily with both keyboard and
> > > > > > mouse since one week.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Alex.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > --joanie
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6/28/19 4:43 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:
> > > > > > > > We've made a more deep test with Jean-Philippe and the current
> > > > > > > > behaviour is really strange. Indeed the Braille cursor routine
> > > > > > > > works but both with the mouse review and with the real mouse it
> > > > > > > > doesn't work at all so I think it's a Thunderbird issue.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We'll try to discuss the Thunderbird team to check if it's a known
> > > > > > > > issue.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > Alex.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Le 28/06/2019 à 10:26, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :
> > > > > > > > > Le 27/06/2019 à 22:30, Joanmarie Diggs a écrit :
> > > > > > > > > > 1. Did the mouse pointer move at all when you pressed KP / to
> > > > > > > > > > synthesize
> > > > > > > > > >      the click? (If it didn't, I'm guessing something is blocking
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >      event synthesis.)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, the mouse moves over the button correctly but the click
> > > > > > > > > doesn't work at all.
> > > > > > > > > Note: We're not using Wayland.
> > > > > > > > > Note: The click works on the Thunderbird menu.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Does the click works for you in Thunderbird Daily on agenda
> > > > > > > > > invitations ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2. Did the mouse pointer move in the general direction of the Add
> > > > > > > > > > button
> > > > > > > > > >      (compared to where it was before you pressed KP /)?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I assume answering the question one seems sufficient.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let me know if you need more feedback.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > > Alex.
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > orca-list mailing list
> > > > > > > > orca-list gnome org
> > > > > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > > > > > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > > > > > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > > > > > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > > > > > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > orca-list mailing list
> > > orca-list gnome org
> > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > > Orca wiki: https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/Orca
> > > Orca documentation: https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/
> > > GNOME Universal Access guide:
> > > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/a11y.html


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