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Re: [orca-list] Left click recurrnt problem

Hello,

There was mentioning of some additional debugging for mouse related
things in Orca now.
Are these still in place, or is this just a temporary thing? On my
system simulated clicks with flat review work fine.

Thanks,

Brandon

On 6/28/19, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL <jpmengual hypra fr> wrote:

Hi

Le 28/06/2019 à 15:26, Joanmarie Diggs a écrit :

Hey Jean-Philippe.

Where is the "live" button? If the label is a french word, I'll need to
know that.


Here is the log of what I do:
https://framabin.org/p/?d5d8a5c9ca96d2d3#YgsfJ4y5lPTZVdDuYqD+d/COrwx+ps7JqTWQ3t4QE8Q=

Actually, when you move the flat review on the page, you have, among
others buttons "écouter" "édito" "live" "podcast".
One line with a list of links without labels. Then this list of buttons.
Orca displays exactly "live live" "édito édito" etc.

Note that until recently the left click worked, hence my feedback.




Having said that, there is a difference in how braille works versus how
flat-review clicking works. Personally, I think it should be the same,
but I think braille should do what mouse click does; not the other way
around. Let me explain:

What Orca's mouse click does is synthesize a mouse click as if you
yourself grabbed the mouse, moved the pointer over the object, and
pressed and released the specified button. That way -- assuming the
synthesized click was possible via AT-SPI2 -- you get the same result as
a sighted user would get. Achieving the same result as a sighted user.

In contrast, what the braille click does is see if the action interface
is implemented. And if it is, it uses it to perform the first action in
the list regardless of what that action might be. Why on earth does it
do that? Well, the decision predates me. My theory, however, is that the
decision went something like this: If we have an action, it's probably
the one we want, so why not? The thing is, it could easily not be the
one we want. Here's the deal with actions, as they currently exist in
ATK/AT-SPI2:

* The name of the action can be anything; there is not a pre-determined
  set of possible values to which the application/toolkit is
  constrained.
* Some applications and toolkits localize their action names; some
  don't.
* There is no rule dictating what actions must appear, nor in what
  order they appear.
* Hopefully using the action interface will work; but maybe it will
  and maybe it won't. It depends on the application/toolkit handling
  that AtkAction function correctly.

Another interesting scenario, though it requires a bit of background
first: In order to make longdesc information accessible via screen
reader, Gecko created their own special action called "showlongdesc".
For the average image which has a longdesc attribute, this action is the
first action. With this background in mind, let's say you have an image
with a longdesc inside a link. Orca thinks you're on the image, and it
presents it as "foo image link" to let you know that pressing return
will follow the link. What should happen when you use the braille
routing key? Follow the link or activate the longdesc? If you said
follow the link, then you may be disappointed because for braille
clicking, Orca prefers the first action and the first and only action on
the image in this example would be showlongdesc.

Given all of the above, I have no intention of making Orca's flat-review
left click feature default to doing anything other than a left click.
Doing so would, in some instances, be seen as a regression; not a bug
fix. As a result, there will potentially be a difference between what
happens when you braille click versus flat review click -- unless, of
course, I make braille do an actual click as well rather than simply
hoping and trusting that the first action is the correct action. (I'm
guessing you don't want me to make such a change, but if I'm wrong,
please let me know.)

That said, what I'm considering doing is the following: Based on your
debug.out, Orca does know that things seem to have failed. As a result,
Orca could fall back on looking for an action called "click"
(unlocalized). And if it finds that unlocalized action, it will give it
a try. Give me a little while to put that in place and I'll follow-up in
a new email.


ok, yes it seems a good balance



Do please keep in mind that all of this is necessary due to 1) poor
accessibility on the part of the application and 2) something weird
seems to be going on with your system that's preventing the normal
synthesized click from working. Trying to address both at the problems'
source would be a good idea, because Orca might not find a "click"
action to fall back on for every last thing you need it to....

Sorry for the long message, but I hope it gives you a better
understanding of why braille clicking works differently sometimes and
why I don't plan on duplicating that behavior for the flat-review click.


Yes many thanks for it, it is helpful.

Best regards



--joanie

On 6/28/19 8:01 AM, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:

Hi Joanie,

Beyond the particular case of TB, which seems to present very strange
behaviour, here is another example where the left click does not work
with Orca while it works in braille:
1. In Firefox, open https://la1337.com/
2. Here again, many things inaccessible. With the flat review, go to
"Live" button.
3. Left click via the flat review. Nothing happens while in braille,
if I click with routine, the window opens to run the live streaming.

Hope it is more helpful

Regards

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Le 28/06/2019 à 13:50, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :

Le 28/06/2019 à 12:36, Joanmarie Diggs a écrit :

That's really strange that the real mouse doesn't work at all. Does
the real mouse work on other things?


Yes it works, I'm using Thunderbird daily with both keyboard and
mouse since one week.

Best regards,
Alex.



--joanie

On 6/28/19 4:43 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:

We've made a more deep test with Jean-Philippe and the current
behaviour is really strange. Indeed the Braille cursor routine
works but both with the mouse review and with the real mouse it
doesn't work at all so I think it's a Thunderbird issue.

We'll try to discuss the Thunderbird team to check if it's a known
issue.

Best regards,
Alex.

Le 28/06/2019 à 10:26, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :

Le 27/06/2019 à 22:30, Joanmarie Diggs a écrit :

1. Did the mouse pointer move at all when you pressed KP / to
synthesize
    the click? (If it didn't, I'm guessing something is blocking the
    event synthesis.)


Yes, the mouse moves over the button correctly but the click
doesn't work at all.
Note: We're not using Wayland.
Note: The click works on the Thunderbird menu.

Does the click works for you in Thunderbird Daily on agenda
invitations ?


2. Did the mouse pointer move in the general direction of the Add
button
    (compared to where it was before you pressed KP /)?


I assume answering the question one seems sufficient.

Let me know if you need more feedback.

Best regards,
Alex.
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