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Re: [orca-list] Research&effectively using theis mailing list:__was Re: ChromeVox and speech-dispatcher

Knowing how to use google or any search engine effectively is important, but honestly most any "How do I do 
<some basic 
task> on ubuntu" question is answered with a very straight forward google query. Sure there will be an 
exceptiononce in a 
while, but come on, how to unzip a file?, how to install software?, (I"m not picking on you Isac, just using 
examples that 
come to mind), and similar...there's no doubt that someone did not google. 
There's pretty much no doubt that they did not try even half way as if the first search result they tried did 
not answer 
their question in a way that was clear to them there would have been many, many alternatives to shoose from. 
There are certainly other resources than google however, and actually one is often better off using them, 
i.e. using 
official distro documentation. At least in the case of Ubuntu this is seldom overly complicated for a newbie, 
and at least 
can and should be used to check on the accuracy of information found in a how-to that is in doubt. 
Is a mailing list a viable alternative for getting answers re basic computing issues, yes, but again, this is 
not the list 
for those questions, and nor are most lists once the question gets to a basic enough level. YOu can find 
lists for 
questions like that however, but remember that most people who will use such a list are not particularly 
knowledgable, so 
you may or not get accurate info, especially if the question has any tricky angles.
Everyone must find their own balance of learning methods and what tools to use when and for what, and of 
course their are 
few absolutes, but I can be 5 9s sure that some people have not made much if any effort, and those people do 
make it 
harder for others to efectively use resources such as this list.
I believe in being polite as most people do really want to do what is best for them and the rest of us, so if 
any thing 
said sounds harsh to anyone please understand that harshness was not nor is not my intension. I have often 
overlooked the 
more or less obvious and appreciate  being reminded when this happens, so I try and return the favour. 
Best wishes to all in the quest for knowledge!
--
B.H.
  


On Wed, Jun 04, 2014 at 01:36:29PM -0400, Al Sten-Clanton wrote:

Both of the messages just below mine make a number of good points.  The one
caution I wish to note here is not to oversell the usefulness of a google
search.  Sometimes,  they're great and bring quick, good results.
Sometimes, they lead to nothing useful.  Therefore, although I use google
almost every day and agree that it's often a good place to start looking for
answers, I am slow to get on somebody's case unless I think there's very
good evidence that the person in question simply doesn't want to bother
doing his or own work.  (In practice, so far, that has meant that I've never
gotten on anybody's case that way.) With that caveat, however, I welcome and
appreciate the comments below.

Al

On 06/04/2014 01:09 PM, B. Henry wrote:

All good points. I'd like to add a couple more, and also say this not just for Isac, and some of what we 
are writing
doesn't even directly apply to him.
Firstly, Isac's subject does explain what he wants to know and what is in the msg body. Often though 
people use subject
lines that give no useful information as to what the message is about, and/or are so general that they are 
not worth the
energy used to type them. One would hope that questions to this list are about orca in some way or another 
for the most
part. Some times something may be not directly related to Orca, but be of interest to a large percentage 
of Orca users and
or developers. If the latter is the case, think twice, wait a while and think again before posting, and if 
you still think
it is something that most folks on the list will want to read and you don't make a habbit of posting such 
OT messages then
go for it. Either use OT as a prefix to the subject, or try and make your subject specific enough so that 
ppl will
understand that thie msg is not about Orca. (I'm not a list moderator, and have not even been on this list 
for very long,
so please take this is a personal oppinion/request, but not as official policy)
Next thing is if you are new to the list take some time to browse the list archives. Often a question has 
been asked
before, sometimes recently, and sometimes repeatedly every few weeks or months. This question for example 
while not
directly asked perhaps was discussed at length with in the last few weeks. Of course no one has time to 
read every message
ever posted to the list, but at least look at the last month or two of messages when you join.
It is not only a bit pushy in tone, but probably almost always completely useless to request speedy 
replies as most of us
who try to assist others by answring listmai questions will do so as soon as we can for a number of 
reasons, not the least
of which being that enjoy helping others. I remember the invaluable help I received from the Vinux 
googlegroup/mailinglist
when I first started using Linux a few years ago and feel strongly about paying back and doing as much as 
I can to
encourage more blind people to use Linux as my computing life has become much more rich&comfortable since 
I went Linux.
One of the things that makes Linux such a viable, and often easy option for computer users is the wealth 
of material
available online. Of course it's not all good, and varies greatly in style and content, but it's 
exceedingly rare that I
can't find answers to my Linux questions searching online. Ubuntu has been #1 or close to it in popularity 
for years, so
getting help with Ubuntu is especially easy and you can pick from information that ranges from almost 
idiot proof step by
step how-tos to the highly technical analysis of issues. The archwiki is a very good source of info that 
is often helpful
for those using other distros as well. Gentoo's wiki was apparently mostly destroyed a few years ago, but 
they salvaged or
rewrote a good bit since then, and again there's stuff there that is often reffed by other distros' users. 
The vinux wiki
is a work in progress, but has a good bit of information that is highly recommended for those new to the 
world of
accessible Linux, and if you are a bit farther along and would like to contribute, we will appreciate it. 
The
Vinux-support google group has been around for several years now, and is an active spot for the discussion 
of not only
Vinux, but many thigs related to accessible Linux and Linux in general. Check out those archives.
Those coming from windows and other opperating systems often do not know about man pages. Just type man  
<programname> or
man <command> to get an overview of what the program is about or what the command does and how to use 
correct syntax with
it, e.g.
man ls
will give you explanations of what the ls command does and a list of all of it's options, and there are a 
lot.
Many people who've been using LInux for a while don't seem to know about info pages. Info pages are 
somewhat like man
pages, and in the most limited cases are nothing but manpages accessed with another command. IN the best 
cases info pages
are nicely organized linked explanations of a program and how to use it.
Not all man pages are created equal, and especiallly for a new linux user or someone who is not 
particularly technically
experienced they can be hard to follow. Sometimes authors are not native English speakers, or seem to 
hardly be aquainted
with communication with words, but others are well  written and include easy to follow examples of how to 
use the program
or command they are talking about. Check at the bottom of a man page, even if you don't understand it, for 
a list of other
sources of documentation. Some programs have extensive docs available typically in the /usr/share/doc/ 
directory.
Sometimes these are available from with in a program itself, but othertimes you have to go there and read 
it.
Typing a program's name and then either help --help -h  or something similar can often give you all that 
you are looking
for.
Again, we are not only writing this to keep list clutter to a minimum and not waste list members'     time 
or bore them,
but because often it is so easy and fast to get an answer with a quick search, i.e. you can have the 
answer before you
would have mailled a well formulated question to the list.
BTW, few care about perfect spelling and grammar here, but make an effort to insure your question is as 
clear as possible.
Include any information regarding program versions, hardware and what was going on when a problem or 
situation of interest
occured in the first mail instead of having folks needing to ask for basic stuff and waiting for a reply 
before they can
even start to help. We've all written in a hurry and hit the send button too soon, but try and remember to 
reread your
question before mailing it to see if it is reasonably well composed.
Well, sorry both for going on so long and for leaving out important ideas and tips, but hopefully this 
will give some
people some clues as to how and learn more about their computer, Linux, and of course Orca. Remember that 
while Orca users
may be the best people to ask something that's not orca specific, this is the Orca list, and not a place 
for asking any
and all accessibility questions, Linux questions etc.
Oh, one great tool that many may not know about is surfraw it's in many distros repos and saves valuable 
seconds and
minutes searching. (google it to learn more...lol.)
--
B.H.





On Wed, Jun 04, 2014 at 10:57:57AM -0500, Todor Fassl wrote:

You guys are all so tactful. But it might be worthwhile to say things a
little more clearly.

Isaac, it is considered a little impolite to ask questions on a list that
you could  answer yourself by googling.  Also, you shouldn't ask more than
one or two questions a day. Finally, you shouldn't say you want your answer
as soon as possible unless it really is some kind of emergency.  This is
true especially if you are going to ask several questions at a time. All of
these things are considered to be a little impolite on email lists.

The list is here for you to get help but you should be careful to use the
resource wisely.  In fact, you'd be doing  yourself a favor by always
checking google before asking for help on an email list. You will find more
complete answers and find them faster by using google. And it's an important
skill to develop if you are going to work with computers as part of your
job.  I used to have a boss who made it a point to check a person's googling
skills before hiring them. It's a valuable skill to have.


On 06/04/14 07:21, Justin Pospical wrote:

Hi Isaac,

Might I suggest that before installing Ubuntu or some other
distribution, you do a bit more research on it? Google is invaluable
for this kind of thing, and you can probably find answers to most of
your questions there. Also, it may be benificial for you to try out
Linux in a VM (that is, a virtual machine), on Windows before actually
installing it, or do install alongside Windows in a dual-boot setup,
if that is not what you're already planning to do. I won't go into
virtual machines here, but two good clients you can try are VirtualBox
and VMWare Player, both free. As for you're original question, under
the Orca preferences dialog there is a keybindings tab, which you can
navigate to by using the left and right arrows on the tab list, which
should be the first thing you see when opening the dialog. there will
be a list of functions separated into categories, bound, unbound and
modified, which you can up and down arrow through. when you find a key
you'd like to change press enter on it until you here "enter new key"
and type the key you'd like to assign to that function, then press
enter again. When all is said and done press the ok button. Remember
that Orca does not operate the same way that JAWS, or any Windows
screen reader for that matter, does, so you're not going to get the
exact same behavior. You should probably read up a bit on the orca
documentation, and that of gnome and other graphical programs you
intend to use. Vinux has a wiki with a lot of good information, might
want to give it a look.

On 6/3/14, Isaac Sebastian <isaacs1214 gmail com> wrote:

Hello, All,

I was wondering how to make the keybinding on orca exactly like
the jaws for windows screen reader.  Please let me know as soon
as possible.

Sincerely,



Isaac Sebastian
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Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp


_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
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