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Re: [orca-list] What Orca will do was Re: What's standard? was: Re: date and time keybindings

Hi,
I vote for double press orca+t. I had actually already made that change for the next version of customizations.py. It is easy to remember because usually time and date are grouped together. Also, putting them together frees up another key for future use.
Thanks
Storm
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On Mon, 2010-05-03 at 21:47 +0100, Rui Batista wrote: 
Hi all,

In my last patch to bug #611576 I set orca+t to read time and orca+t
(double tape) to read data. Is that what people want or orca+d for date
instead? I prefer the first option but if the majority wants orca+d for
date lets go for it... And whatever the keybinding is lets move on :)

Best regards,

Rui Batista


Seg, 2010-05-03 às 16:06 -0400, Bill Cox escreveu:
> I'll throw in my vote for Orca+T.  Vinux already uses StormDragon's
> default keybindings: Orca+T for time, and Orca+D for date.  If you
> combine them, I'd vote for Orca+T.  He also binds weather to Orca+W,
> but I have to agree that weather is a controversial keybinding, so it
> doesn't belong bound by default.
> 
> Bill
> 
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Al Sten-Clanton
> <albert e sten_clanton verizon net> wrote:
> > Joanie, thank you for your excellent commentary on key bindings.  I am a
> > JAWS user, and I have my moments of misusing a JAWS keystroke on my Linux
> > machine and vice versa.  Nonetheless, the criteria you set forth for key
> > bindings are far more sensible than how much you might make Orca look and
> > work like another screen reader.  At least, that's my take.
> >
> > AlOn 05/03/2010 12:35 PM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all.
> >>
> >> Please accept my apologies in advance for the lengthy email. But I'm
> >> feeling the need to draw a couple of threads/themes to a close.
> >>
> >> On Mon, 2010-05-03 at 16:39 +0530, hackingKK wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, I did not mean standards as in "ISO" or some other standard.
> >>> ment some concept for example when you press ctrl + b in openoffice orca
> >>> responds "Bold on " this also happens in other free and proprietory
> >>> screen readers.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I think this is another example of doing the thing that makes sense. It
> >> turns out that other screen reader developers also recognize that this
> >> makes sense, so they do it too. :-)
> >>
> >> In other words, given a user who has just toggled bold on in your screen
> >> reader, what should you speak in response? (As hard as it is, pretend
> >> that no other screen reader has implemented such a feature yet.) Your
> >> goals are:
> >>
> >> * Communicate accurate information
> >> * Do so in an efficient matter (i.e. as few words as possible)
> >>
> >> What's relevant here? the format (bold) and its new state (on). Ergo,
> >> "bold on." To me it is a natural (and one could argue, the only) choice.
> >>
> >> With this in mind, let's now to proceed to the following question, which
> >> we've been discussing largely to no avail on this list, namely: Given a
> >> user who wants to know the time (again, imagining that no other screen
> >> reader has implemented such a feature yet), what is the logical choice?
> >> Your goals for this command -- and all commands -- are:
> >>
> >> * easy to discover and to remember
> >> * easy to perform (i.e. physically)
> >>
> >> When you want a heading you go with h, when you want a heading at level
> >> 2 you go with 2, when you want a list you go with l, when you want a
> >> list item you go with i, when you want an entry you go with e, when you
> >> want a radio button you go with r, ... I'm a user who wants to know the
> >> time. I think I'll guess.... Oh I dunno.... F12. Yeah, right. Anyone who
> >> said F12 (keeping in mind the rule here: Pretend no other screen reader
> >> has implemented such a feature yet), deserves to be voted off the
> >> island.<smile>
> >>
> >> Mind you, I sympathize with those of you who are JAWS users and/or who
> >> work with JAWS users and who find JAWS commands more familiar. And I
> >> encourage you to rebind any Orca commands you'd like to whatever you'd
> >> like -- on your local system(s) -- to make Orca easier for you
> >> personally. HOWEVER: For the umpteenth -- and hopefully the last --
> >> time:
> >>
> >> * Orca is not JAWS. Orca will never be a JAWS clone. There will always
> >>   be differences between Orca and JAWS. I'm sorry.
> >>
> >> * The goal of Orca is to provide compelling access to the GNOME desktop
> >>   for GNOME users. Regardless of where the users have come from, be it
> >>   from OS X or from Windows or from a console environment, or from KDE.
> >>   Regardless of if they have experience with VoiceOver or JAWS or NVDA
> >>   or Window-Eyes or Hal or have never used a screen reader before but
> >>   are starting to because of a change in vision, or because they are
> >>   children learning how to use a computer for the first time.
> >>
> >> * Maintaining compatibility modes, layouts, whathaveyou for additional
> >>   screen readers to try to make things "more familiar" in Orca will
> >>   suck up time and energy that Orca developers do not have because this
> >>   is not something you set once and forget about. There will always be
> >>   a danger of a change in Orca's native behavior breaking some
> >>   compatibility mode.
> >>
> >> * We don't have things in Orca like a virtual viewer and a virtual
> >>   buffer and an off-screen model and video intercepts, etc. But we
> >>   do have flat review mode (which JAWS doesn't have; perhaps they need
> >>   to clone us), and we present web content as it appears on the screen
> >>   so that you can see the same thing that your sighted peers do
> >>   (perhaps JAWS should do that instead of totally recreating and re-
> >>   rendering what's on the screen into a format that is very different
> >>   from what your sighted peers see). As a result of these differences,
> >>   even if we could reasonably maintain a compatibility mode, there will
> >>   always be differences significant enough to cause compatibility mode
> >>   users to get confused and frustrated when Orca doesn't behave like
> >>   JAWS (or whatever screen reader their mode is attempting to emulate).
> >>
> >> Because of these things, all proposed new keybindings will have to pass
> >> the following test:
> >>
> >> "Imagining that no other screen reader has this command, what keybinding
> >> would make the most sense because it is discoverable, memorable, and
> >> physically easy to execute?" Alternatively, a candidate keybinding which
> >> has overwhelming community support will almost certainly be fine by me.
> >> <smile>  Proposed keybindings which fail the "makes sense" test and which
> >> lack overwhelming support will not be accepted.
> >>
> >> Which brings us back to Orca+F12 for the time/date.
> >>
> >> * Is it discoverable and memorable, keeping in mind we're imagining that
> >>   no other screen reader has such a feature? No it is not. FAIL.
> >>
> >> * Is it physically easy to execute? Not for Desktop layout users
> >>   because it will require anyone without super long fingers to move
> >>   their left hand over to the right side of the keyboard. FAIL.
> >>
> >> * Does it nonetheless have overwhelming community support? Based on all
> >>   the discussion I've seen this past week, it is clear that it does not.
> >>   FAIL.
> >>
> >> As a result of these failures, Orca+F12 will *not* be the
> >> default/shipping/upstream binding for causing the time to be presented.
> >> Those who just can't live without it being Orca+F12, please let us know
> >> if you need help learning how to rebind commands on your local system.
> >>
> >> Orca+T seems to lack overwhelming community support (largely due to JAWS
> >> compatibility mode advocates). But Orca+T to speak the Time is
> >> discoverable and memorable. It's definitely physically easy on the
> >> Desktop layout. It's a tad less natural-feeling on the laptop, but I can
> >> very easily use my left had to press CAPS_LOCK+T. So I'd say it's fine
> >> ergonomically. Therefore, I would be happy to accept Orca+T as the time
> >> keybinding -- assuming the community feels that the time command should
> >> be bound to something by default.
> >>
> >> --joanie
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> orca-list mailing list
> >> orca-list gnome org
> >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> >> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> >> The manual is at
> >> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> >> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> >> Netiquette Guidelines are at
> >> http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines
> >> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> >> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > orca-list mailing list
> > orca-list gnome org
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> > The manual is at
> > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> > Netiquette Guidelines are at
> > http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines
> > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> > Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
> >
> _______________________________________________
> orca-list mailing list
> orca-list gnome org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> Netiquette Guidelines are at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines
> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

Rui Batista
E-mail/googletalk: ruiandrebatista (at) gmail (dot) com
MSN/WLM: ruiandrebatista (at) hotmail (dot) com (don't send mail to this
one)
Skype: ruiandrebatista
twitter: http://twitter.com/ragb
weblog: http://unreliabledevice.net

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Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
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