GNOME.org
 

[orca-list] What's standard? was: Re: date and time keybindings

Just one question I get from your message, what determines if it is a standard? We probably all could agree that things like mathml, SSML, java EE, etc are all standards. Is something done by one of many companies/organisations a standard (eg. jaws keybindings), probably not, at best just a standard specific to that company. Then there is the middle ground where a number of companies do something but there is no formally agreed standard (eg. I think most screen readers use h/shift+h for moving by headings).
In the first case we probably should try and follow the relevant formal standards where possible as this will lead to the greatest compatibility. I would say the other two cases we should do this when there are other independent good reasons for following (eg. on the merits of the idea it makes sense to do it that way, h/shift+h seems logical for heading) or we work so closely to the other group it makes sense we follow their standard (eg. if there is a standard in gnome for doing something then try and follow it).
Applying this back to the specific thing startig this: orca+f12 doesn't seem to have any stand alone reason for being date and time, it will negatively impact current users by shuffling the orca/gecko caret control. Orca+t logically fits with other orca keybindings (orca+h for learn mode or key help, orca+b bookmark, etc) and it doesn't mean having to move an existing keybinding. The double tap for date makes sense when compared with the flat review keys, more taps more detail. The only down side might be its one more keybinding for some users to learn when they move to Linux and orca (NOTE: this is only some as numpad0+f12 is not used by all screen readers). The transition period is quite short compared to the rest of the time using a computer and if the user is a little unsure then they can use learn mode to try a few. 

Just my thoughts.

Michael Whapples
On 05/03/2010 09:35 AM, hackingKK wrote:

Hi Michael.
I totally agree with you on the points you mentioned.
I think there are a lot of established users (I started my IT curier on Unix ). Basically we are not here to win the windows users, put it the other way, we don't want to force people. I know ma many blind and sighted hard core windows users who shifted to Linux because they liked it. They know it is virus proof (virus being an invented concept of digital terrorism by windows). They know they have a huge community support which somes times comes at their rescue even faster than commertially payed support. 
Now Talking about Orca, We have 2 approaches.
If y is giving some very good feature and it is standards based then yes x can at least clone that feature of y. But if we have a better approach to a certain feature with other screen reader, there is no reason we can't go with our justification. 
I also personally feel shuffling the keybindings is not a good idea.
Besides with a slight lerning curve people can still use the preferences in Orca to change the keybindings where they want to. 

Happy hacking.
Krishnakant.

On Sunday 02 May 2010 04:37 PM, Michael Whapples wrote:

Jacob,
I think when describing reasons why people may switch to Linux/Solaris/BSD systems and orca you covered the reasons fairly well. However the other group we have to consider is the established users. For what ever reason these users have decided to stick with orca (speaking personally, orca and gnome seems to fit my needs best, although there are times when I decide to switch to a text console and speakup for heavy bash usage) and if we were to try and clone other environments we run the risk of destroying what people currently like. Continually shuffling keybindings with no better reason than it makes it look like another product would really annoy me.
Now are we trying to win Windows users, I would say no we shouldn't we're not here to compete with it but just to provide an alternative (Interesting thought/question: Is a clone of X an alternative to X). People should be coming to Linux because they want Linux not because they want a free screen reader, as Isaac noted there are free screen readers for windows and those may suit them better. 

Michael Whapples
On 01/-10/-28163 08:59 PM, Jacob Schmude wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi
I have to ask: Has any of you who've brought up Voiceover on the Mac in
these discussions ever actually used it? Some people keep bringing up
Voiceover in relation to established convensions. If you'd used
Voiceover for even a second you would know it resembles no other screen
reader either in keybindings or concept. Yet, Voiceover's user base is
growing by enormous amounts compared to any free Windows screen reading
product, jaws emulation or no, and most users have no problem picking it up. 
Look, people aren't dumb, and it's not as hard for us to learn new
things as a species than some of you are making it out to be. Difficulty 
and will are two different things, and if a person doesn't have a wish
to learn something new then (s)he won't do well with Orca no matter how
much we make the key bindings like jaws, because Orca just isn't jaws.
It's that simple.
What's this assumption I'm seeing that we want to forceably attract
Windows users? Are we on some sort of evangelical quest I'd not heard
about? I wouldn't think our goal should be to emulate Windows AT just to 
pull Windows users away from there to GNOME and Orca. Remember, most
people who first look at an alternative operating system or environment
do so for either of two reasons:
1. They're sick of the status quo.
2. They have to, for work.
In the case of 1, forcing Orca to be like jaws will drive them away, not 
interest them. In the case of 2... well, if you're in such a position
where you need to learn an alternative os and you don't have the will to 
learn a couple different keystrokes, then you're probably not in the
right position.
Apple isn't succeeding with their accessibility because they emulated
jaws. They're succeeding because they had the will to rethink how a
screen reader and accessibility in general should work and they let the
product, and their users, do the rest.

On 05/02/2010 01:19 AM, Isaac Porat wrote:

Hi

There are two free screen readers (that I know about) in Windows, both
came out roughly at the same time.
The first took the pragmatic approach and decided to emulate good
practice (or perhaps familiarity) with other established screen readers 
with lots of user experience behind them. At the same time   certainly
it has its own distinct way of doing things.
The second one has implemented its own user interface very different
from established practice.  Although the second one is still a lot
better with Microsoft products than the first one the first one
practically established itself as the most popular.
There are of course other reasons for this but the above I believe is a 
major factor.
The ratio of Windows desktop to Linux users is about 90 to 1. The scene 
changed a lot since Orca came on the scene; there is an increasingly a
good free screen reader for Windows and many more free (and open source) 
applications available, and of course the Mac screen reader came along

I argue that the opinion of members of this list (me included) many of
whom used Linux before Orca came along is not so important - it is the
experience of those from other OS who might like to use it who will find 
comfort with familiarity which is the issue.
Speaking of gnome itself, I actually like the key bindings many of which 
sensibly map to Windows the most stupid I find is F10 and Shift + F10
for the menu and context menu a feature used a lot more than finding the 
time and date which I find stupid - it easy enough to get to function
key in either side of the keyboard but more difficult to get to a
function key in the middle.  .

Regards
Isaac


On 01/05/2010 18:48, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

Hi Glenn.



I prefer the JFW key bindings, as they seem most intuitive to me.


Intuitive or familiar?



   I wish
someone would make a JFW-like set of key bindings that could be
loaded into
Orca.


Do you also wish that someone would make a Windows-like set of key
bindings that could be loaded into GNOME?
As a reminder, the GNOME desktop is not Windows; Orca is not JAWS. There 
is not a one-to-one correspondence between Orca commands and JAWS
commands, nor is there a one-to-one correspondence between Orca "modes" 
and JAWS "modes".

But even if we didn't care about that and figured we'd slap together
something that kinda sorta mapped for the sake of being familiar for
JAWS users, we're leaving out a bunch of folks. In order to be fair, we 
should probably do the same thing for Window-Eyes and NVDA users. And
since Orca also has magnification functionality, we really need to do
mappings for folks coming to us from ZoomText and MAGic. Oops, almost
forgot: VoiceOver users.

So that means we'd require the following layouts:

1. Orca Desktop
2. Orca Laptop
3. JAWS-like Desktop
4. JAWS-like Laptop
5. Window-Eyes-like Desktop
6. Window-Eyes-like Laptop
7. NVDA-like Desktop
8. NVDA-like Laptop
9. ZoomText-like Desktop
10. ZoomText-like Laptop
11. MAGic-like Desktop
12. MAGic-like Laptop
13. VoiceOver-like Desktop
14. VoiceOver-like Laptop

More if we need to also ensure a smooth transition for Hal/SuperNova
users. ;-)
Then there's the maintenance: Even if we decided to discriminate against all screen readers but JAWS in this loadable-layout scenario, that would 
give us four keyboard layouts. Currently, when creating new Orca
commands, it's hard enough to find ideal, intuitive, available
keybindings. Now we also have to ensure that we find them for two
additional layouts? And I'd bet money that if we went to all the trouble 
to do so, one of the things we'd see is confused and frustrated users
posting questions here to the effect of "I'm using the JFW-like set of 
keybindings. So why isn't Orca working like JAWS?"
Having said all that, there's nothing stopping you from binding Orca's 
commands to whatever you'd like them to be.

--joanie

_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines 
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp




_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at
http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines 
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkvdKB8ACgkQybLrVJs+Wi4QgACfcZEJN4tU0uyeiKPxjvShpqUD
4JAAniZbcVNwVMnkJ/YYdEVr3a4/nZQX
=Yz0M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



_______________________________________________
orca-list mailing list
orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
The manual is at http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html 
The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
Netiquette Guidelines are at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines 
Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
[Date Prev][Date Next]   [Thread Prev][Thread Next]   [Thread Index] [Date Index] [Author Index]