Re: [orca-list] date and time keybindings

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Hi Steve
Well, the structural navigation keys make sense. H for heading, B for
button. That's not so much copying other screen readers as it is binding
sensible keystrokes. The fact that other screen readers also saw these
as sensible just makes, well, sense. <smile> My objection to f12 is
simply that it is only being proposed for compatibility and not because
it makes sense. I don't have anything against copying sensible things,
if you do anything in software development that's simply unavoidable.
What I don't like is copying something that doesn't make sense simply
because it would make a product transition easier. Any transition to
another system involves a bit of learning, and there's no sense in
emulation just so that people don't have to learn.
Okay, I'll shut up now. <grin>

On 05/01/2010 09:30 AM, Steve Holmes wrote:
On Sat, May 01, 2010 at 09:16:00AM -0400, Jacob Schmude wrote:
Try an experiment. On a typical, desktop-style, full keyboard press
numpad+0 (insert) and F12. How comfortable is that? It's fine on a
laptop keyboard, as caps+f12 isn't that far off track, but on a desktop
keyboard you might as well go look at the panel... except that, in GNOME
2.30, we can't thanks to a regression in the clock applet.
If we don't like using two keys, then I propose orca+t to either speak
both the time and date at once (something similar to what Window-Eyes
does when you press insert+t) or have date as a double-tap of orca+t.
F12 is just too far out of the way, and there's no reason to copy JAWS
(which is what NVDA did) when we can make it better instead. I really
don't want to see Orca fall into the trap of copying other screen
readers just for the sake of compatibility. It does a disservice to the
users in the end. GNOME is not Windows, it will never be Windows, and
making Orca copy Windows products too much will cause problems when the
users run into something in GNOME that just isn't the same regardless of
screen reader. True, this is just a date/time keystroke, but I'm
concerned about precedent. Now it's date and time, will it be flat
review commands next because users have to learn something new and some
people think that's too hard? I raise the issue now, because f12 doesn't
make sense as a date/time key *except* for compatibility and only
compatibility with jaws.
Maybe I'm insane, but I'm concerned. Thoughts?

No, you're not insane at all.  I agree totally with you on this thing
of cloning behavior of other screen readers.  I don't give a damn
about jaws or being compatible with it at all.  I use window-eyes and
beta test for them; this discussion comes up over there too.  Should
we do a particular thing like jaws does it? no, let's do it the "right
way".  I feel Orca should follow that path as well.  Let's not do
something or with a particular key just because jaws does it that

I know we just had some discussion with the browser structural
navigation keys and aligning them with other screen reader
conventions.  That might make more sense as structural navigation is
probably much more widely used and may offer up more confusion when
doing something as basic as locating parts of a page.

As for date/time, I personally took Storm's original script and merged
it down to a single function and use the orca+T key for a single
announcement; that is my preferred method.  Maybe an unbound key could
be built for a date/time function.  Personally, I sould rather combine
date and time to a single slog so we don't eate up keyboard realestate
so quickly.  I make this last point because instead of using orca+D
for the date, I mapped that key to rotor debug levels.

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