Re: [orca-list] SWT (Standard Widget Toolkit) for Java platform accessibility

[Michael Whapples <mwhapples aim com>]

On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 19:30 -0400, Willie Walker wrote:
> Ah yes, it might be using GTK+ via JNI.

That seems to make sense. As you had got me thinking about it, I had to
load up eclipse and try the orca key stroke for script information, and
when I found enough fingers in the right places to achieve this feat
(ORCA-CTRL-ALT-HOME, quite a stretch) it told me toolkit was gail.

Also it makes some sense as I know that on Windows I can use window-eyes
with eclipse but window-eyes does not support the java access bridge.

Out of interest, how do these two approaches (SWT and swing) compare for accessibility in general? By this I 
mean if I develop an application I want to be accessible (may be as one of its main concerns) which would be 
better? I mean by better, the consideration that SWT can be used by those tools which don't support the java 
access bridge (eg. it is not worth trying to increase the user base if the qualityof accessibility is lowered 
to a point where it becomes awkard to the user). My experience with orca and eclipse seems to indicate that 
SWT is up to it.

Michael Whapples

> Will
>
> Michael Whapples wrote:
> > On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 09:05 -0400, Willie Walker wrote:
> > > Hi Bart, Michael:
> > >
> > > I'm not sure there is a programmatic way from the assistive technology 
> > > side to determine which graphical toolkit is in use by Java.  Right now, 
> > > the information that is returned to us is the name of the Java access 
> > > bridge, which is used to access both Swing and SWT.
> >
> > Is it? I am not wanting to doubt you, but I am quite sure I have used
> > eclipse with orca without the java access bridge installed. May be it
> > gets reported that way. I am going to have to go and check this.
> > > BTW, I believe there's a design flaw in the AT-SPI, which is that the 
> > > application (or, in the case of Java, the Java access bridge), not the 
> > > individual UI object, tells us the toolkit that is being used.  The 
> > > reason I think this is an issue is that we run into situations where we 
> > > see multiple toolkits in use at once.  Yelp, for example, uses GTK+ and 
> > > Gecko.
> >
> > I seem to have a memory that somewhere in eclipse one menu system was
> > reported as gecko on my braille display where as the rest of eclipse
> > belongs to "eclipse".
> > > Will
> > >
> > > Michael Whapples wrote:
> > > > I am not sure how to know for certain, but you can check the following.
> > > > If the application is accessible via ATK (not requiring the
> > > > gnome-java-access-bridge) then it could be a SWT app. Java swing relies
> > > > on the java access bridge, and I think you can tell this by using the
> > > > orca script information key. I don't know what orca reports about the
> > > > window if it is using SWT, anyone know?
> > > >
> > > > Michael Whapples
> > > > On Wed, 2008-07-30 at 21:49 +1000, bart bunting net au wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there an easy way to tell if a java app uses SWT?
> > > > >
> > > > > I recently tried jbidwatcher an ebay sniping program and it came up as inaccessible.  I presumed at 
> > > > > the time that it was because it didn't use SWT but didn't really know how to check?
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Bart
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeff Cai writes:
> > > > >  > I made a simple accessibility test based on Azureus, a bt client which 
> > > > >  > is using SWT. Please note that though SWT is written in Java, its 
> > > > >  > accessibility makes use of atk-bridge while not java-access-bridge.
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > Overall, the accessibility works fine on Azureus.
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > 1) honoring theming
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > Most controls works fine except the combo box in High Contrast themes. 
> > > > >  > The items in drop-down boxes can't be discriminated from the background.
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > 2) keyboard navigation
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > pretty good.
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > 3) orca
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > Most components work. orca can't read the toolbar buttons, but 
> > > > >  > accerciser can show them, so I guess because orca doesn't get the button 
> > > > >  > names.
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > It looks like orca also doesn't read the text in pop-up bubble on the 
> > > > >  > right-bottom of the screen.
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > Jeff
> > > > >  > 
> > > > >  > 1)
> > > > >  > Jeff Cai wrote:
> > > > >  > > Are there any stand-alone SWT example applications we can use to test 
> > > > >  > > the accessibility? Eclipse is too complicated to evaluate since it 
> > > > >  > > shows too many controls without names in accerciser.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > Jeff
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > Michael Whapples wrote:
> > > > >  > >> On Mon, 2008-07-28 at 07:40 -0400, Willie Walker wrote:
> > > > >  > >>> Hi All:
> > > > >  > >>>
> > > > >  > >>> Just curious if anyone has had a chance to work with this widget set 
> > > > >  > >>> or an application that uses this widget set. 
> > > > >  > >>
> > > > >  > >> I use eclipse regularly, and I think that is done in SWT.
> > > > >  > >>
> > > > >  > >>> If so, what has your accessibility experience been with respect to 
> > > > >  > >>> things such as: 1) honoring theming, 
> > > > >  > >>
> > > > >  > >> I am not sure, are themes just visual, if so then I won't notice being a
> > > > >  > >> speech and Braille user.
> > > > >  > >>> 2) keyboard navigation, 
> > > > >  > >>
> > > > >  > >> Key board navigation seems good. Seems to behave very much like a GTK
> > > > >  > >> application. I don't know whether this is that the eclipse developers
> > > > >  > >> have ensured this is so, as I know they have implemented many keyboard
> > > > >  > >> shortcuts (eg. move to problems screen, package explorer, move to
> > > > >  > >> console window, etc).
> > > > >  > >>> 3) access via Orca, 
> > > > >  > >>
> > > > >  > >> Eclipse is useable, but there are occasions when it doesn't do what you
> > > > >  > >> might expect (I have filed some bugs against orca for some of these).
> > > > >  > >> Examples of problems are:
> > > > >  > >> When code completion is used or eclipse does some code completion for
> > > > >  > >> you and you are back in the edit mode (IE not in the list of
> > > > >  > >> suggestions) the completion is not shown in braille until something like
> > > > >  > >> a semicolon (;) is done or you move away and back to the line. When the
> > > > >  > >> code completion isn't shown, the interesting thing is that the cursor
> > > > >  > >> moves, but the edit marker (the $l) doesn't, so it appears the cursor
> > > > >  > >> has moved outside the control in Braille. If you cursor left or right
> > > > >  > >> through the code completion then speech tells you the character you are
> > > > >  > >> moving over, and the Braille cursor moves, but the control appears in
> > > > >  > >> Braille as before (IE showing the text upto where the code completion
> > > > >  > >> was done).
> > > > >  > >> Braille cursor routing doesn't work (certainly in the code editor, but I
> > > > >  > >> think in other edit areas as well).
> > > > >  > >> Sometimes the tree views don't always report the right thing (not sure
> > > > >  > >> if orca is at fault or eclipse). This problem doesn't always show
> > > > >  > >> itself, but when it does show itself it seems to be when the selected
> > > > >  > >> item is at a higher level in the tree than an item physically further up
> > > > >  > >> in the list (eg. if the selected item is at level 1, and if you were to
> > > > >  > >> press up cursor you would get to a item at level 5).
> > > > >  > >> I used to have a problem with Braille being updated in the eclipse
> > > > >  > >> console window, but I haven't seen that for sometime and my version of
> > > > >  > >> eclipse has been updated since the last time I saw it, so I don't know
> > > > >  > >> whether it was a problem caused by eclipse which might have been fixed,
> > > > >  > >> or if it was to do with how I was using eclipse, or if I have simply
> > > > >  > >> been lucky (as it was a problem which showed itself occasionally when I
> > > > >  > >> did find it).
> > > > >  > >>> etc.?
> > > > >  > >>
> > > > >  > >> I know that eclipse may not be the best example application for many
> > > > >  > >> reasons (eg. its size and complexity, as well as the fact that I know
> > > > >  > >> that eclipse developers have done work on accessibility, so may not be
> > > > >  > >> representative of standard accessibility). Nevertheless I hope this is
> > > > >  > >> useful as a start.
> > > > >  > >>> Will
> > > > >  > >>>
> > > > >  > >>>
> > > > >  > >>>
> > > > >  > >>
> > > > >  > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >  > >> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> > > > >  > >> gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> > > > >  > >> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > _______________________________________________
> > > > >  > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> > > > >  > > gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> > > > >  > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
> > > > >  > 
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