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Re: [orca-list] Want your opinion on the removalof"Close" buttonson some dialog windows

Well, seems that others are confused about semantics as well.  I think I'll 
come down firmly on the standard windows-type dialog idea:

1. Every dialog has ok and cancel buttons.
2. No close button in the tab order.
3. If you close the window with alt+f4 (or clicking some standard graphical 
close button in the corner or wherever it is), then this should be 
synonymous with cancel.
4. If an apply button is present, then it shall save changes immediately, 
keep the dialog open, and possibly disappear from the tab order (or stay but 
become disabled and orca should read it as a disabled control).

Thanx.
-- Rich

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Pascoe" <softy lofty ilp btinternet com>
To: <Orca-list gnome org>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Want your opinion on the removalof"Close" buttonson 
some dialog windows


Will et al

My suggestion would be to remove the Close button, but instead where data
within the dialogue hierarchy has changed, then an Apply button becomes
accessable.  Once the Apply button has been pressed, it disappears.  If the
dialogue is attempted to be closed before using this button, a Are You Sure
type box should appear.

However, this entire concept appears to go against what I would term as
being the norm, certainly looking at someone coming from, or who still uses
a Windows environment where a button to close the dialogue, be it Close, OK,
Cancel or whatever, generally exists.

E

Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: orca-list-bounces gnome org [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org]On
Behalf Of Michael Whapples
Sent: 07 November 2007 10:48
To: Rich Caloggero
Cc: orca-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Want your opinion on the removal of"Close"
buttonson some dialog windows


Hello,
Rich I think your confusion about some of this illistrates part of my
concern. Those dialog boxes with just a close button I think are
normally updating settings as you change them (IE. when you check a
check box the action is done then, so there is no option to cancel and
not apply changes made), whereas those with OK and Cancel buttons only
apply settings perminantly when you press OK. My concern is, if there is
no button which you can tab to explicitly to close, you may wonder
(particularly with less accessible apps) whether you have missed
something, and in those dialog boxes (such as the orca preferences)
where there is an OK and Cancel buttons pressing alt-f4 would not save
changes (would be the same as pressing Cancel). So in these cases of two
different dialog types, alt-f4 has slightly different meanings. This
slight difference is what puts me off the idea. This "missing" something
thought may be even more so for those using screen magnification, but it
has been a long time since I have been able to use that sort of feature.

From
Michael Whapples
On Tue, 2007-11-06 at 15:21 -0500, Rich Caloggero wrote:

I think removing clutter (and that also means clutter in the tab order) is

a

good thing. The close button doesn't need to be in the tab order as long

as

there is a well-known shortcut (alt+f4).

I am confused about the alt+f4 or close button's semantics, however. Does

it

close without save (akin to cancel or escape)?  I like the windows
convention of having OK and cancel buttons (enter and escape keys) in all
dialogs for accept changes and cancel changes, respectively.
I think alt+f4 should never save changes! It should be synonomous with
cancel.
-- Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon" <j orcauser googlemail com>
To: <orca-list gnome org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [orca-list] Want your opinion on the removal of "Close"
buttonson some dialog windows



Hi,

I dont mind either way, i am totally blind and dont tend to tab around
to find the close button, unless i wanted to make sure that the settings
weren't saved. alt+f4 is well known so I dont think there will be a
problem there.

The question becomes, do we have save button for when we wish to confirm
our preferences? and in that case wouldn't it look odd graphically to
have a save but not a close button? I guess if the close button is in
the top right then it is obvious.

Gnome-volume-control doesn't have a save or close button, yet when
alt+f4 is pressed the values of volume bars are saved.

I guess for people using magnifiers it is advantagious to minimize
clutter on the screen, and once they know that top right will close,
then that is straight forward. (my sight use to be better)

regarding the comment made about alerts, i still don't see why alt+f4
cant be used.

In what instance would alt+f4 be confusing? I have always considered it
to be synonymous with close-without-save

Intresting to hear other peoples views about this.

-Jon

On Tue 06/11/2007 at 11:19:25, Willie Walker wrote:

Hi All:

Members of the GNOME team are considering removing the "Close" buttons
on many dialogs in GNOME.  For example, almost all of the GNOME
Preferences windows -- Appearance Preferences, Keyboard Preferences, AT
Preferences, etc. -- have this "Close" button.

The discussion on this subject is here:



http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-themes-list/2007-November/msg00000.html


"I wanted to investigate if we could get rid of all our Close-buttons in
some windows, since every window have a big close button in the top
right corner anyway. (therefore less clutter) A big stopper for this was
apparently the highcontrast themes, where the close button in the corner
hit target is pretty small apparently."

If the "Close" button were removed, you'd have to remember to press
Alt+F4 (or Alt+Space and then navigate to the menu item) to close a
window.  Escape may also work.  I personally think this might be too
much to remember (I like "Close" buttons), and can also leave you
wondering if any changes you made in the window were saved or lost as a
result of pressing Alt+F4.

Anyhow, your thoughts on this would be appreciated.  If you're strongly
for or against the idea, please provide a constructive comment for why.

Thanks!

Will
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Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca





_______________________________________________
Orca-list mailing list
Orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca


_______________________________________________
Orca-list mailing list
Orca-list gnome org
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca
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