Re: Programmer's criticism of GTK2

[Timothy Flechtner <Timothy Flechtner tellabs com>]

it seems like a fairly measured response to me.  your critique was in no 
way constructive ("too complex" and "simple" give no useful information) 
and insulted the developers who have done all the work you yourself say 
you use.

unless you have special knowledge of everyone who has contributed to gtk's 
motives, alleging the gtk developers blew something off, because they 
didn't do it the way you wanted is both baseless and base.  in your second 
email, your defense of using the word "apparently" doesn't hold water with 
me.  you are apparently a nonproductive whiner (see what i mean?).

if you want a less complex interface go ahead and submit one.  if the 
original purpose of your email was to gloat about your own API, well 
congratulations.  if you wanted a positive response to your criticisms, i 
would recommend not insulting your target first.

-tim



On 2002.03.15 11:41 Norman Black wrote:
> > > For simplified functionality one can provide a simplified interface.
> The
> > > GTK developers apparently decided to blow that off. After all, why
> > > should they write that code once, when all of us can each write such
> a
> > > thing for ourselves, or we can deal with the complexity on each an
> every
> > > instance we use the control.
> >
> > You're right, our goal is to fuck you over and write sucky APIs. And
> > then we make the source code and development mailing lists closed, to
> > keep you from contributing to or commenting on the APIs as they are
> > plotted in our evil minds. Don't get me started on the private bug
> > database that no one can see or add to.
> >
> > Havoc
>
> Do you kiss your mother with that mouth.
> Do you behave in such a manner in public, or only over the internet.
>
> I never said the API was a sucky API. The statement was that the APIs
> are overly "complex". Complex can have many meanings. From my reading,
> the usage of complex in this thread said that GTK2 requires more code to
> do the same thing than GTK1.2. This was in reference to the GTK2
> List/Tree widget.
>
> Yes, GTK2 makes it easier, or just makes it possible, to do more
> sophisticated things. I feel it is safe to say that the majority of
> usage (number of instances) of a list widget is for very simple usage.
> Therefore why not have a simple API for simple usage. Something like
> this would be a separate widget. Something like SimpleList or whatever
> you tickles your fancy.
>
> Since the developers were aware of the additional coding necessary, to
> no effect for simple usage, and that no simple API existed, "The GTK
> developers apparently decided to blow that off." I said "apparently"
> since other trains of thought could exist. An obvious one being that the
> simpler CList still existed, so someone could use that until it
> disappears.  I did not think this was a likely train of thought. Another
> thought is that encapsulating and hiding the additional coding necessary
> is a simple thing to do so users could easily do this if it makes sense
> for them. In my mind it is much more efficient to have such a thing done
> in the official API rather than every user doing this for themselves.
> Obviously different people are going to come up with differing ideas
> about what "simpler" means. I in no way advocate that GTK become the
> million API toolkit. But I do advocate the concept of a simple API for
> simple usage, at all points necessary/possible.
>
> As stated previously the additional coding complexity means nothing to
> me since I have my own GUI encapsulation, therefore I use my own API and
> not the API of the underlying system (GTK or Windows). Therefore no
> amount of fucking me over with a sucky API (your words) can have any
> real effect on me.
>
> > And
> > then we make the source code and development mailing lists closed, to
> > keep you from contributing to or commenting on the APIs as they are
> > plotted in our evil minds. Don't get me started on the private bug
> > database that no one can see or add to.
>
> Nice rant. I hope it made you feel better.
>
> I never made any statements on any of the subjects in this rant, but I
> do have a comment.
> Why would someone comment on a API when a rant is the possible result?
> I will say that I have not noticed such rants over the past year and a
> half that I have been reading the GTK mailing list(s).
>
> Best Regards,
> Norman Black
> Stony Brook Software
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gtk-app-devel-list mailing list
> gtk-app-devel-list gnome org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gtk-app-devel-list
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