From: Michele De Pascalis <glaedr il drago gmail com>
To: Brian Duffy <brduffy gmail com>
Cc: "gnome-love gnome org" <gnome-love gnome org>
Subject: Re: [gnome-love] GNOME needs some good SDK
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 14:45:24 +0100
I would use C++ if we care about performance (and I'd care), Objective C if we don't.
Inviato da iPhone
Il giorno 01/mar/2012, alle ore 20:46, Brian Duffy <brduffy gmail com> ha scritto:
Hmm. When was the last time you tried it? I have not been using it for a long time but I have managed to do quite a lot with Vala/Clutter and so far it has been pretty stable. I just wish it had better debug integration. Still, I am far from a complete application so things may crop up. For now, I am liking the ease and flexibility of it. What language would you recommend for a *standard* programming environment with GNOME, other than C?
Vala compiles in C/GLib, that actually provides an object sistem written in C, using C structs to provide it, with reflection and all. Using structs to provide OOP is less performant than using native OOP classes: GLib is compiled in structs that are compiled in assembly, while native OOP classes are compiled in assembly without any implementation between. Briefly, GLib results in a system of structs to represent a system of structs, while native OOP implementations are just systems of structs. There is the difference of an implementation layer, that is overhead. It's quite similar to every runtime object system, like those in Objective C, Java, Python, ecc.
Plus, compiling from C means low-level exceptions, while compiling from a native OOP language means high-level exceptions.
However, I'm not so good at explaining such complicated concepts in English...hope you get it anyway.
Vala is translated in C/GLib before it's built, that
means so many data structures in assembly, that means overhead.
And, Vala was quite unstable the latest time I tried it, throwing
meaningless low level exceptions (a good inheritance from
C).
Err... I don't really understands this.
What are you saying actually? There should be no overhead in running
time. Maybe slight overhead only at compilation time. Which don't
mean much if it means increase in productivity and less programmer
time used.
Or, I misunderstood your point? Care to elaborate?
Personally, after quite a while deciding what language to use
for my project, I went with Vala. I just did not want to deal
with writing my application in C. If Vala could gain an
excellent IDE with a proper visual debugger that isolated you
from the underlying C code then I think that would make for a
nice development environment. Problem is, I don't see the
community getting this done with Vala. I'm just happy that
they have done what they have! It's amazing really. However,
you can't escape the fact that many of these contributions are
made by people with other, more pressing responsibilities. The
most successful ones are often sponsored by a larger company,
but there contributions are sometimes limited to that
company's needs.
My biggest hope is for a company like Canonical to spend
a good deal of time and money and develop a kick ass Vala
IDE/Debugger and API even if they have to charge for it.
Cocoa is not a single framework it has a lot of
them, I think even more than gtk+ and gnome have
together. MS also has many technologies,
frameworks and solutions. So I'm thinking
nothing is that bad with gnome, but
maybe a good ide is needed 27.02.2012
23:31 пользователь "Darton Williams" <dartonw gmail com>
написал:
>
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Michele
Alex D. De Pascalis <glaedr il drago gmail com>
wrote:
>>
>> Just look around: Apple and
Microsofts have their own SDKs, APIs and IDEs
perfectly working with them. Compared to
these, developing for GNOME is way too hard
and complicated. Maybe we have the fastest
software, but we have to write with Gtk, which
is just a toolkit, without anything else
really integrating it. And C is over, so
autogenerating a wrapper isn't a good solution
(talking about gtkmm). If a newbie gets in
touch with Cocoa and Xcode, he gets templates,
he gets wide documentation, he connects events
with handlers by a drag'n'drop, cutting on the
IDE's editor.
>> But it's not just about the IDE
itself, it's also about paradigms: Apple chose
Model View Controller and Delegation, and
everything is written around these, and it
takes seconds to add a View to your
application.
>> I'm saying this because I've been
learning Cocoa for eight months, and I had
learnt C++ before. Even now I know C++ is
better in many ways, but trying back Gtk made
me understand it's not about the language,
now. Those who write iOS or Mac apps know what
I mean with all this.
>>
_______________________________________________
>> gnome-love mailing list
>> gnome-love gnome org
>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-love
>
>
> I fully agree with this statement - that
GNOME desperately needs a unified API/SDK. It
would accelerate adoption of GNOME simply
because application development would become
less of an arcane art. As a developer, I feel
that I could contribute to that effort.
>
> So how do we get started? :)
>
>
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