On Fri, 2005-05-13 at 13:44 -0400, Miguel de Icaza wrote: > Hello, > > > > * Community: We want to be able to plug into an active > > > community, where we can get support and we can benefit from > > > other third party experiences, tricks and information. > > > > Usually that's not a big problem in the Free Software world. If it's a > > free software project, you usually have a community around it. > > Although your statement is almost true, am sure we can all appreciate > the difference between the extreme of `the community made up of the > author' and `a community of one hundred thousand users' ;-) > > The volume of the community matters. Of course, and I don't know the monotone case, but cvs, subversion and arch have communities bigger than just the author :-) > > > > * Maturity: Arch and Monotone are at the place where Subversion > > > was two or three years ago, when the early adopters were > > > trying out the technology. And ever since they said `This is > > > usable' in the pre 1.0 day, and even a year ago when 1.0 was > > > released people still had issues and these problems had to be > > > sorted out. > > > > Well, seems funny that I need to say this, as I suggested the migration > > to Subversion a year ago, but, Arch is around before Subversion got the > > 1.0 release: > > > > http://regexps.srparish.net/src/tla/ > > > > tla-1.0.tar.gz 19-Jun-2003 21:25 2.8M > > > > While Subversion didn't reach the 1.0 release until 8 months later... > > > > http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/NewsItemView?newsItemID=612 > > > > Don't know about Monotone. > > Subversion, being a commercial product was a lot stricter about what > they would be willing to call a "1.0". Hmmm, I don't know about tla as I didn't know about the project at that point, but I think that usually a free software project takes much more time to reach a 1.0 release than non free software projects so I don't think that because "subversion is a commercial product" took much more time to be a 1.0 release means it's better than other thing because it also happens in non commercial products... > > > > No matter how great Arch and Monotone are (and they are > > > beautiful) they have just not received enough testing nor have > > > they aged enough to be used for something of the scale of > > > GNOME. > > > > Well, Ubuntu is using Arch as part of its development since some months > > ago already and in the near future will be use it much more. GNOME and > > KDE are included into Ubuntu so... I think that's a good stress prove, > > isn't it? > > How large is this Ubuntu repository, how many revisions and branches > live in this repository? Ubuntu is importing into arch all free software products that exists in its archives so the developers can handle patches with arch easily. > > I do not know what you guys use the repository for, but you could > probably tell us more: > > * Do you check in the source code for every program that you > ship in Ubuntu into arch, and maintain all of the branches? > > If this is the case, this is a pretty big respository. We are doing this. It's not yet finished but is a work in progress. But I think we are not importing all branches, only the main ones. I'm not involved in this task so I don't know all the details but http://arch.ubuntu.com is where the imports into Arch are published. > > * Or do you use Arch/Bazar just to check in the build files > that drive the build? > > If this is the case, then it seems like a very small > repository > > The Mono repository holds 1.6 gigabytes of data. I don't have access to the server that has all Ubuntu archives but as you can guess, if Ubuntu imports all packages it ships will be much more bigger than 1.6GB... > > > * User base: only as a function of the previous maturity > > > component: how many large projects have adopted Arch? > > > Monotone? and Subversion? > > > > I cannot give you a list of the projects that are using them. > > > > > > > > How many lines of code are maintained by those adopters in > > > each case? > > > > No idea of numbers. > > Lets find that information, because this has all the signs of a red flag > to me. If there are no large deployments, then Arch has not been > hardened enough. We are using it a lot, every time more. http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/HctPackageCollaboration That tool will be used to maintain the packages in Ubuntu, and it uses Arch to do the version control. > > > Yeah, there are 17 links to projects, but, for instance, the whole > > Debian project is not using Subversion, only a part of it, others are > > using Arch and I'm sure there are others that are using other ways to > > handled the code. > > Ok, lets scratch Debian. We still have Apache, Samba, KDE and Mono. > > > Arch has also, at least, one company that I'm aware of, I think there > > are more, but I'm not sure. > > Lets get the data then. I have provided the data on the Subversion side. > > We cant pull a Rumsfeld and just say `Lets go Arch because there are > known unknowns and unknown unknowns and we know that Ubuntu is using it'. Well, I know that Debian and some GNOME products are already using Arch. Ubuntu is finishing the deployment to start using it a lot and thus any derivative will use it also (like KUbuntu and Guadalinex) About others using Arch: http://www.rhythmbox.org/development.html http://pybliographer.org/development/download http://wiki.linuxbios.org/index.php/Download_freebios_v2 http://www.mico.org/down.html http://www.vim.org/arch.php http://lists.initd.org/pipermail/psycopg-announce/2002-October/000028.html http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fdebrix http://www.gnu.org/software/guile-gnome/dev/ http://www.freespiders.org/projects/gmlview/dev.php http://mirrors.sourcecontrol.net/ http://mirrors.gnuarch.org/ There is even a port of Linux kernel using Arch: http://linuxsh.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/moin.cgi/Getting_20source I cannot give you more information because as I said, I'm only a user of Arch, but I'm sure you can find more projects using google. > > > * Subversion has a full time staff of developers working around > > > the clock to bug fix subversion and maintain regression test > > > cases. > > > > Arch has also developers working on it at full time. > > Lets get numbers: how many. > > Subversion has 8 full time employees that have been working full time > since 2000, and they are employed by Collab.NET that specializes on > this. I don't have those details, sorry. Cheers. > > Miguel -- Carlos Perelló Marín Ubuntu Hoary (PowerPC) => http://www.ubuntulinux.org Linux Registered User #121232 mailto:carlos pemas net || mailto:carlos gnome org http://carlos.pemas.net Valencia - Spain
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