Re: To answer your question about the upcoming Style-Guide...

[sun <as387 yfn ysu edu>]

Dan Kaminsky wrote:

> Hang on!
> 
> I am NOT, nor have I ever claimed that users should NEVER be able to add
> actual apps to the toolbar.
> 
> Nor have I claimed that categories should NEVER be added to the toolbar.
> 
> What I'm talking about is *default behavior*.  I *rail* on Windows because
> default behavior requests that apps install into author subheadings instead
> of app category subheadings.  That, and the Programs section has no purpose.

okay; just had to make sure this is what's being discussed. :) if you
couldn't tell, i happen to really like the gnome panel the way it is.

> BY DEFAULT, apps should not install directly onto the toolbar, nor should
> they install into categories enclosed on the toolbar.  The default standard
> should be the one the designers believe is the most efficient.  If the user
> has a specific case, the *user* should choose to move the app to the
> Gnomeprint.

along these lines, i think i ought to again suggest that the gnome panel
be on the right side of the screen by default. i mentioned it once
before and got an agreement, but i've since gotten so used to it being
there, unobtrusively, even aesthetically pleasing, that i don't even
like to use kde solely on the basis that their panel _doesn't_ go on the
right side of the screen. :)

arguments for having the panel on the right side of the screen:

* vertical space is more valuable on the desktop than horizontal space,
since webpages and text documents are usually of an arbitrary width and
scrolled vertically. putting the panel on the right side reclaims some
of that valuable space from the top or bottom of the screen.

* it will bring the importance of "flippable" applets (like modemlights
& drivemount) to the attention of developers (in contrast to cpu/mem
monitor and webcontrol applets, which are horizontal-only)

* it's remeniscent of nextstep, afterstep, and windowmaker, already very
popular interfaces on linux and unix in general.

> The big question is, since *any* object along a side is going to make it
> more difficult to utilize the rest of that side, assuming you use a single
> side for all information that should constantly be on screen...what
> information gets through?
> 
> What indeed...

i nominate the clock applet. it's the only dynamic "status monitor" type
applet i have installed directly on the panel. i'd also suggest a
mailchecker (standard in the afterstep-lookalike config of anotherlevel,
and, if i recall correctly, afterstep) and cpu average load monitor (one
of the most popular status indicators, judging by the screenshots i've
seen).

> >i give up: wanda the gnome fish for the afterstep/windowmaker dock? a
> >gnome panel that collapses to a user-definable percentage of screen
> >width/height? the latter would be useful but not vastly different from
> >what we have now; the former would be no different from what we have
> >now.
> 
> You'll see.  I got my screenshot drop from Soren, so :-D

okay, we're curious already. :) url?

> I see Redhat and GNOME becoming like Netscape with Mozilla.  Support,
> direct, contribute, and take the finished product and spread it throughout
> the marketplace.  If you don't think GNOME is going to have a standard WM,
> you're kidding yourself.  Whatever comes in Redhat 5.2 or 6.0 is going to be
> the standard GNOME WM.  The E guy *is* working for Redhat.  What's different
> is UNLIKE KDE, Gnome apps will run under any WM.  That's pretty critical.

i've successfully run most of the kde apps under windowmaker, afterstep,
kwm, fvwm2, enlightenment, and twm, so i would suggest the difference is
not that kde _requires_ usage of its native window manager, but that it
_provides_ a native window manager for any that want to use it. the
gnome project doesn't "claim" any one window manager; if one becomes a
de facto standard because it happens to ship with redhat 6.0, i don't
think it will be because of any explicitly stated support from the gnome
project.

i do, however, think that if somebody comes up with a simple window
manager that uses gtk widgets for its right-clickable menus,
configuration dialog boxes, etc, it will likely become popular quickly
for its unity with the gnome desktop, especially once gtk+ becomes
themeable. again, that won't be due to any explicitly stated support
from the gnome project, and all windowmanagers will have an equal shot
at the golden prize (if one does pull ahead of the pack).

> Yes, it's convenient, but it's awful default behavior except for the most
> critical of applications.
> 
> Perhaps, and this is a maybe, we should have a specific set of apps that
> are, by default, on the toolbar.  (Smaller, by the way.  Please.)  Netscape,
> xterm, Midnight Commander make good options.

yeh, this is what i was thinking above. take a poll; i doubt there are
many of us who don't have an xterm or rxvt on our windowmaker dock,
afterstep dock, or gnome panel. also, as i mentioned, a clock, mailcheck
applet, or cpu monitor are very popular.

> >you might be surprised to learn that i've "converted" several friends to
> >linux on the basis of this one windowmanager alone, and that there are
> >many people who find it very useable in spite of (because of?) what you
> >surely would call clutter.
> 
> What resolution were your friends running at?  Just a curiousity question
> before I respond.

800x600 (on my laptop) and higher. in all fairness, i should concede
that i'm trying to figure out how to turn _off_ all those launcher
buttons, but that's just because i want to run the gnome panel as a
replacement and that will have its own set of launcher buttons. :)

> "Tabbed windows"?  I haven't seen em.  Describe?

when you drag a window to the bottom of the screen in mac os 8 or
higher, the title bar turns into an index-card tab, so you can flip
through windows "hidden" at the bottom of the screen by clicking on
their tabs. this was a highly-acclaimed feature when mac os 8 first came
out, because it provided an easy way to organize applications for
launching. if you have six graphics programs, for instance, you can put
them all in a "graphics" folder and drag that window to the bottom of
your screen. then it's easily selectable, right in between your "games"
and "audio" folders, with a single click.

so when do we get a sneak peek at project X? i'm still waiting for wanda
the gnome fish for my windowmaker dock... :)
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin