Re: PROPOSAL: UISG Menu Line Standardization

[George <jirka 5z com>]

On Sun, Aug 09, 1998 at 05:05:45PM -0700, JR Tipton wrote:
> So what? 
> 
> Since like '92?  Which kind of programmers have you been working with?
> Nevermind, I needn't ask: amatuer ones.  Sure, they may be able to sling
> thousands of lines of code, but they're not professionals.
> 
> I dare you to walk into Oracle or some place of the like and say, "hey man
> I just like to write code, documentation sucks."  You know what kind of
> reply you'll get.

BTW ... have you ever been to such a place ... I haven't been to oracle
specifically ... but the places I've been to ... yes .. they HAVE to
document their source ... but they ARE getting paid for it .. and they
usually hate every minute of it ...

but then again .. there are thousands and thousands of programmers that
DON'T have to document stuff all that much .. you write code ... you use
it ... in sysadmining jobs ... or internal software ... most of the time
the pointy haired people only care about documenting the user interface
(they also seem to think that the user interface IS the software) ...

plus there are a LOT of situations in which you are slapped a spec in
front of you .. and told ... go write that ... no need to document that
... it's been done already

> > They feel whatever you have to write for command
> > line help should be sufficient.
> 
> Does this make it right?  When the heck was the last time a man page
> helped any normal, average user out?
> 
> I would also propose that there are coders out there who feel it
> sufficient that their application only crashes 75% of the time.  Does that
> make it right?

wheather you think it's wrong ... right ...  doesn't matter ... it matters
wheather the coder will or will not do it ... people working on gnome aren't
paid for it (modulo a few) ... those people don't really give a rats ass
if someone thinks that it should be better documented ... if they want they
will document it  ... if they just don't feel like it .. they WON'T ...
most of us care and will do some sort of documentation ... but we won't
really go out of our way ...

that's the way free software usually works  ... it will end up that someone
will break down and write the docs ... it usually does happen .. but nobody
forces anyone to do it ...

> > Coders are coders, thats never going to
> > change. You can only encouraget them to write the documentation in order
> > for their program to gain more acceptance in the public.  You cant force
> > them, ala a Style Guide requirement, to write dox -- They'll reject it
> > outright.
> 
> You're wrong on this one, Bowie.  You *can* force the programmer to write
> documentation.  It happens all day and all night in this industry: look at
> any software review in any magazine of a product that had shoddy
> documentation and you will see that lack of documentation is spit at. 

ok ... yes it happens ... but we our outside the industry ... the industry
does not include free software coders .. they CAN'T be forced .. (doesn't
mean we can't be persuaded to or that we won't do it) ...

if some company thinks gnome doesn't have enough docs .. they should write
better docs ... it's as simple as that ...

> If a coder is so flat out ignorant and anti-user from the beginning, I
> have two questions:
> 1) Why is that coder coding anyway?

because he loves to code ... he doesn't care if joe user uses the software
.. he usually cares that the software works ... 

why do people build say kit planes ... it's a HOBBY ... it's just that
coders are usually mroe obscessed about their "hobby" .. and usually also
do it for a living on the side

> 2) Why doesn't the coder get someone to write documentation?

maybe the coder doesn't care ... if someone will come to the coder and say
... "I'll write docs" .. the coder won't say no ... but going out of your
way to do it ... unless you feel like it ... nope ...

> Since you seem to have the realization that coders aren't the best in the
> world at communicating things to users, explain to me how you believe they
> will communicate an interface so well that it does not need documentation.
> 
> I challenge you to prove that GNOME would be worse for requiring
> respectable documentation.  That's what this is about, right?  

GNOME is a free software project ... therefore it can't REQUIRE anything ...
nobody owns gnome .. nobody will go broke should it not succeed ...

that doesn't mean that it doesn't need good docs ... but it means you can't
say "you HAVE to write docs!" ....

if someone said that .. I'd go work on something else ... or just plain
ignored him (the more likely possibility)

George

-- 
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George Lebl <jirka@5z.com> http://www.5z.com/jirka/
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