Re: The current state of affairs, as I see it.

[Tom Vogt <tom lemuria org>]

Bowie Poag <bjp@primenet.com> wrote:
> Please tell that to Tom. He seems to feel he suddenly has the authority to
> tell people to killfile a contributor to this "team project".

you got that wrong, even though I tried to write the whole mail as neutral
and unemotional as possible.

I made a suggestion. nothing more, nothing less. I felt it was necessary to
do something and I believed what I proposed was that something. maybe I'm
wrong, maybe I'm an asshole, but I do consider I have the right to say
things that I think need to be said to move everything ahead.


> The GNOME Style Guide Project *used to be* a team project, until Tommy
> decided he wasnt going to play in the same sandbox with everyone else.
that's the nature of open source development, you know? don't like apache?
grab the sources and make it better. actually, that's the very way apache
was born. :)

also, you forget one important point. there were several people not
satisfied with your approach, and there would have been an RSG anyway,
it would just have a different maintainer.


> I hate to say it, but you can thank Tom for that. If you dont believe me,
> look back at the list BEFORE Tom decided to muddy the waters here, with
> his idea of a "style guide".
we can take that to a different mailing list if you want to muse over your
own on your own. no problem. the second someone with authority over this
list tells me to get out, I will.


> If we (The UISG V2.0 Project maintainers) were allowed to do what we've
> been ASKED to do by GNOME, we would need the complete and undivided
> attention of the mailing list audience, when it came to important issues
> regarding proposals, and subsequent revisions.
you failed in getting people IMMERSED in the project. which is no surprise
if you don't show them what you're working it.

see - you and I have different approaches, but the same goal. why don't you
stop being so ignorant and accept that maybe, just MAYBE you don't own the
trademark to "correct approach" ?


> progress, Miguel. We`re not getting that because of Tom, and decision to
> be disruptive to the creative process by driving a wedge into the mailing
> list audience. How can that POSSIBLY be a good thing, as he contends?
it's called the bazar, you know? have you ever been to one? damn man, that's
a mess and a chaos! wonder how they get ANYTHING done there. but they do.
they really do, and once you become a part of it, you wouldn't want to do it
any other way again.

at this moment, you're one of the outsiders looking at open source
development and shaking their heads.

that's ok. don't get me wrong. maybe this IS the one special case where the
bazar fails. it just doesn't look like it at the moment.



> myself, even going so far as to offer him a co-maintainers position on the
> UISG project last Friday, to prevent the chaos you're seeing on the
> mailing list right now.
actually, I love chaos. earth would still be ruled by dinosaurs if it
weren't for chaos. evolution runs on chaos big time, so much and so
successful that people have begun to write "genetic algorithms" - computer
programs based on randomness. guess what? nobody understands exactly why,
but they often solve problems much better than dedicated custom software
could.


> I call it like I see it, Miguel. When I see someone trying to convince
> other people to **IGNORE** someone else's *valid* , and *numerous*
> contributions to the mailing list, I see an unbelievable amount of crap
> from Tom Vogt, not "XXX".
I don't have a problem with that.

however, you should allow everyone else what you allow yourself. if you take
the right to speak your mind, so may I, right?


> I'd like to know what *you* think of Tom's little suggestion.. That we all
> simply ignore the people who cause him to rethink his poorly thought out,
> poorly founded ideas about how to write (and run) a style guide. We're
> talking about a guy who wanted "Prog" on every submenu on the desktop,
> Miguel. That one example alone completely demonsteates his lack of
> understanding of the real issues which underlie any style guide. And as I
> said before, this mailing list, and this project, are neither the time NOR
> the place for Tom to gain this experience.

fine, you want me out?

if I have 5 e-mails in my folder and/or on the list by saturday evening
asking me to get the hell out of here, I will immediatly unsubscribe.

if I don't, you'd better swallow that your opinion is exactly that -
just yours.


> Yes, Tom has interesting ideas. But having interesting ideas, and a
> desire to manage does NOT mean you are suited for the task of
> coordinating hundreds of people with one goal in mind.
I hate to say it, but it was YOU who has received flak on this list from
VARIOUS sources for lack of social skills and project managemant abilites.

I don't think I'm a good leader of anything. but then, I never called me
something like that and never went and asked someone to give me some
authority. I don't want to. the RSG is a collection of thoughts. I just
collect and sort them. that hardly makes a project manager out of me, does
it?


> A vacation is the LAST thing we need right now . We need to address the
> issues. 
even among all the flames, there has still been quite some progress on this
list during the past week. the same way as you don't see it at the bazar if
you're not immersed, you seem to not notice it here.


> The way to reduce traffic, and regain focus on the mailing list is to
> simply recognize that there is ONE official Style Guide Project. Period.
> Not two, not three, or four, or five or six. A project run by competent
> people, with a solid plan, and EXPERIENCE doing this sort of thing.. Not
> by -a- guy, with NO plan, and NO experience.

who are you to know? do you know how old I am, where I live, what I do for a
living, which projects I have worked on, which educational background and
studies I have?

I don't say I'm a genius. but I DO say that you're not someone to judge me.



to everyone who endured this whole reply: sorry for again drifting off
topic. I believe this had to be said and I will say no more unless it is of
immediate importance.


-- 
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
		-- Henry Spencer