Re: Part of me is laughing, part of me is crying

[Armistead <armistead flex net>]

>Bowie has EXPERIENCE dealing with these kinds of projects. Tom does not.
>Bowie's experience tells him that a completely open approach to developing
>a document of this kind will fail miserably. Tom doesn't listen. Bowie
>waits for Tom to figure it out for himself.
>
>And meanwhile, while we all wait for Tom, we all suffer through 150 emails
>a day of pure chaos and confusion. 

Bowie, the point flew by your head at faster than light speeds, obviously. 
Everyone knows that you have experience writing style guides, you seem to
reiterate this point every other mail (or every 3rd or 5th atleast).  The
point here is that everyone has experience doing other things as well.  We are
all experienced in our own little ways, and simply because you have
participated in a style guide writing before, hardly means you an authority on
the subject. 

It is also this sort of demeaning attitude that makes you look like an
egotistical, self-centered, overly self-infatuated ass.  There is no need to
put anyone down for approaching the problem differently.  None of this would
have happened in the beginning if BOTH of you had acted like adults in the
beginning and simply, compromised.  You're both very, very stubborn
individuals.

>This is actually my job, since I was appointed by Frederico to head up
>this project. Tom apparently doesn't want to recognize my authority here.
>And again, as a result, we all have 150 emails of pure confusion per day
>to deal with, as a result.

No, it isn't your job because you have not been doing it.  You see yourself as
the person who was tasked with writing the document.  I propose to have a
person who is tasked with overseeing progress, and acting as a catalyst to the
document's development by proposing topics of discussing, limiting the
debate, deciding where the majority lies, and logging the results.

>What you're suggestion is what I've said all along.. You CANT develop a
>document of this nature, in a totally, completely open environment. The
>result is anarchy. The process must be OPEN, BUT CONTROLLED.. And nobody's
>listening.  We're too busy arguing pathetic crap like whether or not we
>should be using a weenie picture of a footprint, use some bizzare word
>"Prog", or whatever. You call this progress?

The document can be developed in a completely open style, as anyone on the list
can contribute their ideas.  However, taking INITIAL debate from this list is
not wise.  Its simple, as I have said before.  Get a list of items to be
finalized, propose and debate each one, find where the majority of the lists
lies, and then log that specific solution as the proposed solution.

No one is listening because no one has taken control of the situation.  Instead
of doing what you think to be your job, you are only adding to the situation by
hurling insults left and right.  There is no need to stoop to lower levels if
you are truly self-confident that you are doing your job.  Unfortunately, this
is not so. 

>There  needs to be one style guide. Not two, not three, not four. And the
>only way this is going to happen, would be if someone either A) Told Tom
>to fall into line with the rest of the list, and quit trying to drive the
>whole style guide effort into the ground by splintering off and making
>noise on the mailing list, or B) Remove Tom from the mailing list
>completely.

You are just as out of line as Tom was.  There need not be conformity on the
list, as everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  This would not be a
problem if everyone simply concentrated on making progress.  The idea of making
some sort of debate moderator is simply there to keep the debate moving.  To
decide when everyone has been adequately heard, propose the final question to
the list, and take a tally of each persons choice.  No one should be removed. 
No one should be forced to conform as you put it.  No one should even be
discussing such things.

>Tom has good ideas that we can all benefit from. I dont think he should be
>removed from the list. But if his participation on the list is being done
>in a matter which totally blows the creative focus of others, then he
>should be dropped. You CANT develop a document like this completely out in
>the open. It wont WORK. Trust me, i've been down that path--I already HAVE
>the experience to tell you that its not going to work. Now, you have the
>proof. The train is completely derailed here, just like I and others said
>it would.

Like I said before, the debate is entirely open to anyone on the list.  What is
needed, however, is someone to push everyone along so progress is made.  One
topic at a time, discuss, debate, and decide on it.  And, btw, this moderator
should NOT be you, or Tom, or Dan, or anyone else who is, either "officially'
or "rebelliously" involved in any way with the style guides that already exist.
There are qualified people on here capable of doing this.

>Tom elected to disregard my advice. So, now he, and everyone else on the
>mailing list has to suffer for it? And you want THIS guy to head up a
>project? Uh-huh..oookay.

Unfortunately, Bowie, I see that beyond your outstanding experience you have a
great deal of animosity.  I urge you to focus this towards someone else, like,
communism, maybe.  In my opinion, you are just as ill suited to head this
project.  Not for your related experience, but instead because you can not
communicate effectively. 

- - - - -
Louis R. Marascio 
Email: armistead@flex.net
ICQ: 4270107