Re: Gnomeprint-in-app

["Dan Kaminsky" <effugas best com>]

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Vogt <tom@lemuria.org>
To: gnome-gui-list@gnome.org <gnome-gui-list@gnome.org>
Date: Monday, August 03, 1998 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Gnomeprint-in-app


>Dan Kaminsky <effugas@best.com> wrote:
>> Well, what are we going to put in it that'll be used alot BUT file menu
>> stuff?
>
>not much, that's true.
>that doesn't mean the menu is crap. it does mean that maybe the very left
is
>not it's rightfull place.


It's not right to create a new menu that won't really have that much stuff.

Preferences should go into some kind of Settings menu, I think.  Record
Screenplay..., Record Macro...., Change Window Theme..., and Access Main
Gnomeprint > should join Exit(still sitting around at file) and other system
level commands.

>
>> By the same token, every time you switch from afterstep to E or to
>> Windowmaker or to wherever, you have to completely redo your settings.
That
>> sucks too.  Wouldn't it be best to have a central repository of
>> settings--application heirarchy, panel/dock/wharf apps, etc., and let
window
>> managers SHARE their settings so you didn't have to reconfigure
everything
>> the next time a killer new WM comes out?
>
>this is a non-realizable issue far outside of the style guide.


No it's not.  We're supposed to talk about how things *should* operate,
provided they're possible.  That "provided they're possible" ain't a big
deal; I'm SURE Windowmaker is working on supporting Dock apps to reside in
the Panel; there are already Gnomemaker utilities that unify the root menu
and the gnomeprint; in fact, the formats used by GNOME to define status
really aren't that complex and, here's the key, according to gnome-dev will
be accessible via CORBA interfaces.

I don't fear suggesting anything that's doable, providing it's the Right
Thing To Do.  It's much harder for new window managers to get support if
every time you try a new one, you have to remake all your settings.  That's
foolish.  I should be able to sit a user down at my machine and turn it from
Windows style to Mac style to CDE style to GNOME style right in front of
them and whatever they're familiar with *should* work.

>
>
>> Anyway, I stand by my argument that GNOME really needs a complete full
UI.
>
>the second it doesn't run with ANY windowmanager outside of alpha state,
I'll
>leave it to die.


GNOME will eventually lose some degree of compatibility with some
windowmakers. That's necessary.  What needs to happen is that needs to be
exceedingly easy to patch existing WMs to support GNOME specific extensions.

By the way, I consider divergent structures that contain launcher menus to
be an incompatibility :-)

>books on linux shell programming have ZERO trouble explaining different
>shells. why should a book on the gui have trouble talking about different
>wms?


Newbies, Tom.  Newbies don't do shell.

>dan, you should really  sit down for a while and think about what we're
>doing here. you have a couple of really excellent ideas, but most of your
>stuff is simply outside the scope of this project.


I'm designing a user interface, not some "oh well we'll do this part and
you'll do that part."  I don't *WANT* to be using KDE in a year, but if
GNOME doesn't "win", I'll have no choice.

What do you want to define, Tom?  Just the panel and the apps, and leave the
window dressings alone?  Oops, you better get rid of the panel, that's stuff
that the Window Manager is supposed to handle.  And don't worry about fonts
Tom, who cares about ugliness, that's stuff for the Window Manager to
handle.  And don't worry about a working help system, or a easy way to check
what processes are running, or an interface that users don't sit down at and
want to hit control-alt-delete...

I'm not going to limit GNOME.  That's my call.  I *want* new user interfaces
to be quickly pluggable into GNOME.  I've joined the GNOME project and not
the KDE project because I want an open source interface in every sense of
the term.  I'll support your PSG(I simply refuse to call it "rogue", you're
one of the best contributers to gnome-gui and if you want to contribute via
an alternate proposal, fine and dandy) every step of the way, but I'm not
gonna limit myself to pretty applications.  UI's are a gestalt, not a
cascade of well designed components.  If a new WM comes along with a great
idea we never thought of, I want it to be able to take every bit of work
we've done and build on our shoulders.  If it wants to trash that work, it
should have the freedom too.  The user should have the ability to choose to
customize as much or *as little* of their interface as they so desire.

This isn't being said with the same strength I spoke of with copy/paste.
This is based on me asking around and seeing that how I think WMs should
interact with GNOME isn't impossible.