RE: Question about gnome-db...

["Olivier Nenert" <onenert condumex com mx>]

Salut....ca va la-bas ? ; -)
(je m'imaginais bien que j'avais affaire a un francophone, mais je n'en
etais pas sur)

>I think it's goal is to give people who are interested in switching from
>Windows to Linux the opportunity to see that there are the same tool
>from MS Office. They want to be able to make spreadsheet, word-alike
>work,...
>
Well.. I guess it may have been a first idea.. and maybe it is even the main
goal.. I couldn't say that for Miguel (first I don't even know him). But I
sincerely hope the objective goes farther than that..
(Here in Mexico, comparative advertising is legal, and I have seen many
adverts of PepsiCola,
showing, proving to people that Pepsi tasted exactly like Coca.. many
different adverts to get to the conclusion.. "this time you won't be abble
to make the difference"
I will NEVER buy a Pepsi which only goal in life is to be like Coca.. I'd
better buy Coca which already is) :) (ok I don't like coca neither but.. oh
well...).

>I'm a professional network designer. I'm formerly a computer scientist.
>Here in Belgium, I see a general disgust from Microsoft solutions or
>product. People are sick to hear from MS excuses, MS Error, and BSOD...
>
>They are very interested in Linux and Office part. Actually I think they
>don't care about Gnome or KDE, or whatever.
>
>What they want is to be able to surf, write doc files and spreadsheet.
>
>For these people presentation (PowerPoint) and Databases are less
>important, but important as well.
>
>This is not my opinion, but what I see. Do we agree ? :-)

Well yes we certainly agree (I think). I also have to recognize Microsoft
not only is a shit provider..
In fact, I don't hate Microsoft products as I hate its policies...
Allright allright I also hate most of its products... but in fact, there is
mainly one big responsible:
the (so-called) Operating System.. Sistema Inoperativo as we say here with
my friends..
In french that would be System d'exploitation (mais des utilisateurs !!)
*grin*
Probably Word , excel, access etc.. would be much more appreciated if they
were running on something else than Pseudo OS Windows.. oh well..
Still, even thinking than, let's say Exl is a good product, or Access.. or
whatever..
I wouldn't feel confortable trying to "copy" it. I'd feel better trying to
at least enhance it significantly.
Or else.. what ? I'd better do something about wine so that I'd run the
original n Linux, and then I'd have the best of te two worlds. Still, the
licence problem exists... but.. who in the world doen't have already a
working exl ?? if I want people in my office to switch to Linux (I do), but
can't do it without giving them MS-Office like tools then I will fail.
Meanwhile they are already using Windows and all its office toys.. so.. wine
would do..
What do you think ?
(anyway, I don't see how we could disagree on "enhancing is better than
copying" it is so obvious, and wether the original goal was a copy or an
enhancement is almost a detail... I know it will be an enhancement)

>
>That's part of why I'm interested in Gnome/Gnumeric/Gnome-DB project. So
>I can show them what exist right now, and
>what we'll have in a few months.
>
>
>Though not absolutely powerful, Access is a very nice program. Very easy
>to use. It's very easy to design small
>database scheme. When you want to create table link, request and so on,
>you still can, though more difficult. Then creating a very integrated
>database product is not a task for Access.

I totally agree. I don't like much this kind of approach because my view is
"some people are just so good to make compilers or programming tools,
others are just so good to create efficient databases" In the end,
some are doing "somewhat nice programing tolls WITH an almost acceptable
database engine
altogether" it is certainly nice and useful... but as a developer.. I really
like best the good programing tools that can always use another exellent
database. (but i certainly don't discuss
the usefulness of the middle-solution)

>
>What I would like to see in Gnome, is a product that can do things like
>Access as easily.
>
Well I think it would be very nice also, and if i am not so wrong, the big
idea is that
you could use gnome-db to create such a tool..
First you would chose your dabase (and why not access files, that would be
just PERFECT )
or create it.. or whatever.. you should provide a database corba server to
this database.
then, you could use all the gnome-db widgets to create the application
itself. also, you could create your own..
Also, you would need a nice builder to give users the same ease they have
with access..
for that you would probably have great interest in looking at glade
project..

>One day Miguel told in a presentation : "People tend to think that
>everything that comes out of Redmond is shit, but they can produce some
>good thing". I do think the same way.

That is true... *sigh* I must confess I am part of these :)
I am generally unfair.. But I must recognize not all is bad...
But as the worst is the very base... even if Access is good.. It is not so
easy to enjoy it... also, here it is pretty hard to get a good machine..
it is always less than required to run microsoft painlessly (if such a
configuration exist)
while.. on halft the hardware. I have a very good time with Linux..
I recognize I complain a lot with Microsoft for mistkes that are actually
mine...
I make a!&"$" pointer mistake :) so the damn (how doyou call it ? OS ????)
hangs and I must reboot.. I am guilty.. my mistake... but how in the world
can my mistake hang the whole system ?
oh well.. we'd better not start enumerating those problems.. as Fernand
Reynaud would say
"it even gives me an idea of infinity"

>
>On the other way, I understand that gnome-db is a much more important
>work. Once upon a time, people did things because they wanted to do.
>Now, do you think it is still viable ?

Oh yes yes yes !!!
While studying the same things you did, I was willing very much to do things
that way...
Then, dure work reality made me almost forget that beautiful principle..
thanks to linux comunity and GPL people who just woke up all of us...
(or at least are working on it) (did you see Matrix ? *grin*)

>
>I really think that your job is probably the most important think done
>for Linux and common user. When they'll see what we'll do, they'll be
>convinced.
Well.. I don't know who you are talking to..
if it is gnome specific, then Miguel and Federico do the job..
if it is gnome-db, actually Rodrigo Moya does
(I feel unconfortable with the "yours" in reply to my mail, because I just
did nothing at all,
I am not part of the project, just trying to get in like you are doing right
now)

>
>> On another part, gnome-db wants to provide to another kind of programers
the
>> ability to use data bound components, much in the way Delphi, C++
Builder,
>> Visual Basic and many others do as well. but those component would be
>> plugged together with the other gnome components like the gnome-canvas
for
>> instance. I mean, gnome-db by itself wouldn't evolve in a development
>> platform like access. (at least I dont think so... I don't see the
benefit
>> of it).
>> so gnome-db goes in various directions :
>> ---> gnome-db-server specifications and devel toolkit.
>> |  |-----> gnome-db servers (there is an infinity of them, so none of us
is
>> a specific goal, but all of them are to be included in gnome-db)
>> |  |-----> gnome-db servers tools (servers admin, ... whatever)
>> |  |------> gnome-db specific servers tools. (such as odbc admin)
>> |---> gnome-db-widgets specifications and devel toolkit
>> |  |------> gnome-db-base-widgets (again, lot of them, none is a goal,
but
>> we want them all here)
>> |---> gnome-db-apps
>>    |-----> sample tutorial apps
>>    |-----> general purpose useful apps (like a universal SQL app to query
>> any db for instance...)

I must correct this. I let you think this was the gnome-db goal as if I was
qualified to say it and I am not.. (so that you may have think I would be
part of the devel. team) (wish I were)
I would have much better say "this is my view of it"
or better.. thiws is what interest me in the project... how I feel it...
The same way you see here a great potential to make an Access-like app for
Linux,
I was seeing this kind of toolkit.
(in fact, before to know about gnome-db existence, I asked Miguel if making
a project like "i feel gnome-db can be" would be wellcome in the gnome
project, and how could I start something like that, as I had some of the
concepts in mind, but a big lack of programming abilities and general linux
programing tools knowledge) (yes.. after school I worked on Visual basic.,
Delphi... *shame on me*  *grin*) (in fact I installed Linux for the first
time about 4 or 5 monthes ago and I have much to learn) (still.. I think i
can handle the "concepts" and work on it so that it is just a matter of
learning specific tools and libs) So that Miguel told me something very
similar just existed already, was gnome-db and gave me the homepage link.
Which explains why I am presenting it this way to you.
I don't see any reason ofr the gnome-db project not to become what i'd like
to become AND what you'd like it to become.. in fact.. it would be just an
"inclusion" not an exclusive transformation.


>
>Ok, I will hack more deeply the structure, and then see where I can
>start.
>>
>> (Ricardo.. if I am so wrong I appologize.. that's how I understood it so
>> far)
--------> I have no idea why I said Ricardo.... it's Rodrigo (?!?!?!?!?)
>>
>> There is a reasonably high probability that this doen't answer your
question
>> Bruno, if I misunderstood your question, I'm sorry.
>
>No problem. This is more a general discussion, methinks.
>
>
>Sincerly,
>Bruno
Thanks.. I guess Rodrigo should answer to questions like that, (and finally
decide how to manage the general direction of the project) but as the
mailing list is new, and it was the first message,
I was even wondering if it was "alive" :) and wrote something as soon as
possible...

>--
>Intersted in graphical compiler ? visit http://graph.virgoplus.com

maybe.. what is it ? (the site doen't give a presentation or does it ?)

>------------------------------------
>First they ignore you...Second they laugh at you...
>Then they fight you......And then you win!
>                                (Ghandi)
>


A++;
Olivier