Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?

["david poehlman" <poehlman1 comcast net>]

Yes, Yes, Yes, and yes...! <grin>  I love numbered links, always have and
always will and would that they were implemented in many other environments.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>
To: "david poehlman" <poehlman1 comcast net>
Cc: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>; "Tom and Esther Ward"
<tward1978 earthlink net>; <gnome-accessibility-list gnome org>;
<mozilla-accessibility mozilla org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?


Well, yes. But that's no different from needing to hear/see/feel (AKA
re-read) any portion of the screen. In factit serves as the reason why I
call "screen review commands" the "Huh? What did you say?" commands. Every
screen reader has them because we don't absorb everything immediately upon
first hearing.

Still, you can often catch those links upon first hearing. Recognize that
there's no mystery about the order of numbering. It's always sequential in
whole numbers. Whatever and wherever the first hyperlink encountered is, it
will always be number one, and the next one will be number two, etc. So, if
you're listening to a document and have just heard number forty-nine, you
know, whithout a doubt, that if there's another hyperlink, it will be number
fifty, and whatever text follows "number fifty" is the visible text for that
hyperlink.

David Poehlman writes:
> Meow!
>
> I agree.  I am a bit mystified though.  Whenever I have used lynx <meow!>,
I
> have first had to find the numbers.  Admittedly, once I know what numbers
> are associated with what links, I don't have to wander to them to activate
> them and lists of links are good for this too in a slightly indirect sort
of
> way as well as find on web page where you can put in a unique string.  The
> one thing that numbered links will help with is the encessent need for
> people to call every link a link or to use "click here" everywhere
> regardless of what it does to the usability of a page and there are a
dozen
> other whittisims that are used to konnote links that this would help to
> foil.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>
> To: "david poehlman" <poehlman1 comcast net>
> Cc: "Tom and Esther Ward" <tward1978 earthlink net>; "Janina Sajka"
> <janina rednote net>; <gnome-accessibility-list gnome org>;
> <mozilla-accessibility mozilla org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:39 AM
> Subject: Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?
>
>
> That's a good point, Dave, and I certainly agree that making this into a
> kind of token that can inform in several ways is the right way to go.
>
> I'm still holding out for actionable marking, though, not just
informative.
> It's nice, I suppose, to know that's something is a link, and it's nice to
> know I've traversed it before. But, it's even nicer to be able to activate
> it without navigating to it. The cat still rules on this.
>
> David Poehlman writes:
> > I may have mentioned this before, but audio styling can help here for
folk
> > with sound cards and perhaps some braille styling as well.  Instead of
> > having the word visitted something short and meaningfull could be
> insertable
> > and chooseable.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Tom and Esther Ward" <tward1978 earthlink net>
> > To: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>
> > Cc: <gnome-accessibility-list gnome org>;
> > <mozilla-accessibility mozilla org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?
> >
> >
> > Hi.
> > I think janina is correct. The numbering links option found in lynx is
> > perhaps one of the best accessibility aids in a web browser. It allows
for
> > quick navigation through web pages.
> > Another point Janina mentioned is web browsers in Windows tend to
announce
> > visited link before stating the link. If a visited link message is to be
> put
> > in the program it should come at the end so that the end user can hear
> what
> > link has focus.
> > The main feature I would like to see is good table navigation, and to
have
> > spoken feedback on what row and column I am in when carot browsing is
on.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Janina Sajka" <janina rednote net>
> > To: "Saqib Shaikh" <me saqibshaikh com>
> > Cc: <gnome-accessibility-list gnome org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: Mozilla - like JAWS or like Hal?
> >
> >
> > > This is a fine summation of what has become the expected behavior of
> > browsers under the Windows GUI. However, I am not so sure I would jump
to
> > the conclusion that it's the way browsing should work for everyone.
Those
> > seem two separate issues to me.
> > >
> > > A few examples:
> > >
> > > I find the business of marking links "visited" anoying, especially
when
> > the information precedes (rather than follows) the link text. First of
all
> > it inhibits a smooth read of content. Second, and perhaps more
important,
> it
> > takes time. Uttering the words "visited link" requires four separate
> > syllables. To top it off, it's not actionable information like the
> numbering
> > of links is in the Lynx (the cat) browser. You still have to tab to
> > activate--unlike the cat where you can simply type the number and press
> > enter.
> > >
> > > To my mind a far better way to proceed toward defining useful
> > accessibility features is to canvas successful strategies from both GUI
> and
> > console environments--then to allow for their use through UA
> configuration.
> > If you want visited links, you should be able to turn them on--but I
> should
> > be able to turn them off. And, why not borrow the numbering strategy
still
> > available in the cat (and the chain)? What's wrong with that?
> > >
> > > Saqib Shaikh writes:
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > I ve been following the thread regarding Mozilla 1.7 RC1
> acccessibility.
> > > > I'd like to make some comments based upon my experience with two
> Windows
> > > > screen readers - JAWS and Hal.
> > > >
> > > > JAWS effectively textualises the screen: it inserts the word "link"
or
> > > > "visited link" into the text of its virtual buffer, and also inserts
> > words
> > > > like "list of x items" or "table with x columsn and y rows".  If you
> > copy
> > > > and paste from JAWS into a text editor you'll get this textual
> > > > representation.
> > > >
> > > > In contrast Hal takes the approach of leaving the screen just the
way
> it
> > is,
> > > > and reading what is actually there.  It has a virtual focus mode,
but
> > this
> > > > is more like a reinterpretation of the graphical screen, not a
textual
> > > > replacement.
> > > >
> > > > Likewise in Mozilla's text browsing mode I'd like links to be
coloured
> > and
> > > > underlined, but no word "link".  Likewise Headings should be bold or
> > > > whatever, and tables/lists/frames should look like what they are.
So
> > what
> > > > we have is a version of the main page, but with the ability to
cursor
> up
> > and
> > > > down, select text with the keyboard, do text finds within the
> document,
> > and
> > > > also maybe have a list of links/headings/frames appear at the press
of
> a
> > > > keystroke.  This is all quite general functionality that is
acceptable
> > IMHO
> > > > in a text browsing mode, but which doesn't make it a screen reader
> only
> > > > browsing mode.
> > > >
> > > > Then Gnopernicus should be given enough semantic knowledge of the
> > document
> > > > that when it comes across a link it should know whether it is a
> visited
> > link
> > > > or not, and when inside a table, even though Mozilla's table
> navigation
> > > > commands will be used, Gnopernicus should represent the table in
> > > > speech/braillle in the appropriate fashion.
> > > >
> > > > I think this is the best way to present this UI, but would
appreciate
> > any
> > > > comments.
> > > >
> > > > Saqib
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> > > > gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka, Director
> > > Technology Research and Development
> > > Governmental Relations Group
> > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
> > >
> > > Email: janina afb net Phone: (202) 408-8175
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> > > gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> > gnome-accessibility-list gnome org
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
>
> -- 
>
> Janina Sajka, Director
> Technology Research and Development
> Governmental Relations Group
> American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>
> Email: janina afb net Phone: (202) 408-8175

-- 

Janina Sajka, Director
Technology Research and Development
Governmental Relations Group
American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

Email: janina afb net Phone: (202) 408-8175