Re: [Gimp-user] HATE the new save vs. export behavior

[Kevin Brubeck Unhammer <unhammer fsfe org>]

Jonathan Kamens <jik kamens us> writes:

> I hate the new Save vs. Export behavior. It is completely non-intuitive to me, it makes
> my brain stumble every time I try to do just about any of the things that I do in GIMP
> on a regular basis, and it makes most of my workflows take more thought and more button
> clicks / key presses than they used to.

I love the new behaviour :)

> Here's just one use case that is completely destroyed by this change... Loading a JPG to
> edit and save back to JPG. Old way:
>
>  1. "gimp file.jpg".
>  2. Make changes.
>  3. Type ctrl-s periodically while working to save progress.
>  4. Type ctrl-q.
>
> New way:
>
>  1. "gimp file.jpg".
>  2. Make changes.
>  3. Open File menu and select "Overwrite" (no keyboard shortcut for that!).
>  4. Periodically type ctrl-e to save further progress (because for some inexplicable
>     reason, once you use the "Overwrite" command it disappears and is replaced with the
>     "Export" command which appears to do exactly the same thing, but this one has a
>     keyboard shortcut; how does that make sense, exactly)?
>  5. Type ctrl-q.
>  6. GIMP tells me I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with ctrl-e.
>  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
>
> If I can't remember whether I've saved already or not and hit ctrl-e instead of using
> File | Overwrite, an export dialog pops up and if I just accept the file name in it, I
> am asked to confirm that I want to replace the file. Then I'm prompted for export
> settings. This is absurd.
>
> Here's another use case that's rendered more complex by this change... Load an image,
> edit, and save in a different format. Old way:
>
>  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
>  2. Make changes.
>  3. ctrl-shift-s.
>  4. Modify extension in save dialog.

… and click away the warning about flattening / losing information ;)

>  5. ctrl-q.
>
> New way:
>
>  1. "gimp image.fmt1".
>  2. Make changes.
>  3. ctrl-shift-e. (and, mind you, I have to remember that it's shift-ctrl-e, instead of
>     shift-ctrl-s like in every other freakin' application I use on either Linux and
>     Windows)

You can always rebind it, but is it really that difficult to remember?

>  4. Modify extension in save dialog.
>  5. Type ctrl-q.
>  6. GIMP tells me that I have unsaved changes, even though I just saved them with
>     shift-ctrl-e.

This new warning replaces the old warning about flattening / losing
information.

>  7. Click "Discard Changes" to really exit.
>
> But what about when I do want to load an image in a non-XCF format and then save as XCF?
> Well, Ctrl-shift-e won't work for that, because the export dialog doesn't let you export
> as XCF. I see no advantage whatsoever to this restriction. So I have to remember that in
> this one special case of changing the format of an image, I have to use ctrl-s instead
> of ctrl-shift-e.

For those who use GIMP a lot, XFC is the default case, not the special
case.

> There isn't a single thing that I use GIMP for that is made easier or faster by this
> interface change. Not one thing.

I won't argue against that, but at the same time I don't see the big
problem. It seems the users most likely to argue against it are those
who don't do more than minor touch-ups in GIMP. Those who use GIMP more
extensively, do gain a lot from the new functionality.

> I understand that there is "information loss" when an image is saved as a format other
> than XCF. But the fact of the matter is that when all I'm doing is retouching an image,
> which is what I do most with gimp, I don't give a flying fig about that "information
> loss." I just want the image to save, nice and easy, when I'm done editing it. And I
> don't want to have to remember different commands for GIMP than for every other program
> I use. And I don't want the command I have to use the first time I save an image to be
> different from the command I use the next time; that just makes no sense. Because of
> this particular "feature," I can't even make this problem less onerous by swapping the
> ctrl-s/ctrl-e and shift-ctrl-s/shift-ctrl-e bindings. Brilliant!
>
> I understand that the GIMP developers consider XCF a "special" format which deserves
> special treatment. Well, I don't, and I'm sure there are many, many users like me who
> don't either. This change is just sticking a thumb in all of our eyes.
>
> You could have done this the LibreOffice way... When you try to save an image loaded
> from a format with information loss, you get a pop-up warning you and giving you the
> choice of whether to proceed or save as XCF (and also giving you the choice to make this
> warning go away in the future and just save like you told it to). This is what
> LibreOffice does, e.g., when you load and then try to save a DOC file.

Oh, no, please don't. Doc's at least retain _most_ of the information,
now if you'd said .rtf you'd be closer to the truth …

> Or you could have made this change at least a little bit less onerous by making the save
> dialog default to XCF but allowing the user to edit the extension to save to another
> format. But no, if you try to do that, it tells you, "Sorry, this dialog only saves in
> XCF format," and you have to cancel out of it and export instead.
>
> In my opinion, this change is a huge, huge step backward in useability.
>
>   Jonathan Kamens

The ui docs linked to in this thread argue quite well for the change,
I'll just describe my main use case: I love being able to both save and
export as I go along. Working on a web site, I definitely want to keep
layer info available, so I need the XCF, but to see how it looks in
Firefox, I need the PNG there too. So as I change something, and I want
to quickly see how it looks in Firefox, I can just ctrl+shift+e (then
click reload in Firefox). And it'll retain the path I last specified, so
I don't have to enter anything. And as I go along, I click ctrl+s to
keep the main XCF up-to-date, again without having to re-enter the path.

With the old method, I would work on an XCF, then I had to save as,
select PNG, ignore warnings, then, _very importantly_, I had to remember
to switch back to XCF before I exited GIMP (or had a crash or power-loss
or whatever), otherwise I'd lose the last steps. If I had GIMP focused
but thought I had Firefox focused, and pressed Ctrl+W to close a tab,
it'd take down the image instead with no warning about unsaved changes,
and all the steps after I switched to "preview mode" would be lost. Pure
danger. A graphical program shouldn't make you have to remember not to
shoot yourself in the foot like that.


best regards,
Kevin Brubeck Unhammer