Re: [Gimp-gui] User Testing Report

[Michal Vašut <xvasutm gmail com>]

It's exactly as you said. Different tools are suitable for different situations.

It's nonsense to to even try to make selection of some complex things like branches, hair,... using path tool. 

On the other hand it's quiet useful for some hard surfaces with simple structure (machinery, furniture, cups,...), toons, etc where other selection tools fails. 

On Sun, May 12, 2019, 18:47 Elle Stone <ellestone ninedegreesbelow com> wrote:

On 05/12/2019 08:58 AM, Michal Vašut wrote:
> I am not sure if the Pen / Path tool, you are talking about is the tool
> wirh bezier curves, but if so, here is the uscase for creating selection
> (and its quiet obvious one) :

The pen/paths tool really is not an obvious "newbie choice" for making
selections, not when the first 7 tools in the toolbox all have the word
"select" in their names and their "on-hover" text. It's especially not
an obvious choice for making a rough selection around a stack of cups,
before desaturating the selected area, as per the very straightforward
task in Flynn's usability study.

Flynn Liu, did any of the participants in the study choose one of the 7
selection tools to make the rough selection around the cups? Or perhaps
you explicitly told the participants to draw a line around the cups
using the paths/pen tool because you wanted to see if they found the
paths tool difficult to locate and/or use?

> I am not sure if the Pen / Path tool, you are talking about is the tool
> wirh bezier curves, but if so, here is the uscase for creating selection
> (and its quiet obvious one) :

To clarify my terminology:

PhotoShop pen tool:
https://www.photoshopessentials.com/basics/selections/pen-tool-selections/
- which per your comment is a tutorial on using the pen tool to make a
selection.

GIMP path tool: https://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-tool-path.html -
apparently it's actually called "paths" tool - my apologies, I never
noticed the "s".

> Imagine you have only mouse and need to create precise selection and
> straight lines - using laso tool is not enough (ie to create mask) - one

For many years I didn't have a tablet, only a mouse. On those rare
occasions when I wanted to trace around an object in a photograph to
make a selection, I made adequately precise selections using scissors
and free-select/lasso. Free-select/lasso can make selections as
absolutely precise as your patience with zooming in and adding points
allows. How does the Pen/Path tool allow to make a more precise selection?

Having read the PhotoShop tutorial, and making the perhaps risky
assumption that most of it also applies to GIMP paths tool, the
adjustability of paths around curves in an object during and after
making and saving the path does seem like it might be very useful. So
thanks! for prompting me to take a closer look at the paths tool.

In practice, usually my selections are based on luminance or color
information, which I'm guessing the paths/pen tools aren't designed to
make this sort of selection.

Usually when I make a selection, I immediately add it to a layer as a
mask - how is turning a selection into a mask any easier when using the
paths/pen tool?

I run into difficulties making selections of objects when working with
eg a landscape photo and wanting a selection that separates the sky from
fine branches on the horizon, or a photo of a person and wanting a
selection that separates wisps of hair from the background. Does the
paths/pen tool help with this sort of selection?

> Imagine you have only mouse and need to create precise selection and
> straight lines - using laso tool is not enough (ie to create mask) - one
> way is to create path around object and convert it to selection, it's also
> perfect way to store it for later use.
>

Selections can be stored as Channels. I don't see any advantage here,
unless maybe a stored path takes up less RAM, compared to a stored Channel?

Or perhaps the advantage is being able to pull those stored curves in
and out at the anchor points? I can see this being useful for painting,
and especially for creating cartoon/comic/manga-type art. I can see
advantages for graphic design. But for straight photographic editing, I
don't see the advantage. Though if there are advantages, please explain!

Anyway, thanks much! for prompting me to take a closer look at paths/pen
tool.

Best,
Elle

> On 05/12/2019 08:49 AM, Elle Stone wrote:
>> On 05/10/2019 08:21 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-gui-list wrote:
>>>> Maybe a more interesting user testing with beginners should be done like
>>>> this: they first follow a short introduction/lesson to common and
>>>> limited set of features with examples of usage. Then they are asked to
>>>> do a given task with what they have learned and the tools they were just
>>>> explained. This would be much more interesting maybe.
>>> I tend to disagree.
>>>
>>> A common scenario is that a user installs software he/she sees for the
>>> first time and tries to do something practical. If terminology is
>>> overly complicated/nerdy, defaults are convoluted, and tools don't
>>> work as expected (e.g. closing a path in GIMP doesn't work the same
>>> way as in pretty much every other software, as was pointed out in the
>>> report), chances are -- that user is lost to us.
>>
>> Could you give an example or two in GIMP of what you consider "overly
>> complicated/nerdy" terminology?
>>
>> Could you give some examples of convoluted defaults?
>>
>> I don't know about the path tool working differently than the pen tool,
>> because in all my 17 years of editing photographs using a computer, I've
>> never once had a reason to use a path/pen tool. I'm baffled as to why
>> anyone would try to use the path tool to make a selection.
>>
>> There is a great big huge difference between a "complete newbie" who's
>> never edited a photograph before, and a "newbie to GIMP" who already
>> knows how to use an equivalent program such as PhotoPaint or PhotoShop.
>>
>> A user who is clueless about editing photographs, is not going to find
>> GIMP OR other advanced image editors easy to use.
>>
>>> A common scenario is that a user installs software he/she sees for the
>>> first time and tries to do something practical. If terminology is
>>> overly complicated/nerdy, defaults are convoluted, and tools don't
>>> work as expected (e.g. closing a path in GIMP doesn't work the same
>>> way as in pretty much every other software, as was pointed out in the
>>> report), chances are -- that user is lost to us.
>>
>>> Blender did a fantastic job with 2.80 on defaults and accessibility of
>>> tools. People who teach Blender say, on average, their students make a
>>> lot more progress with 2.80 than with 2.79.
>>
>> One of the first things I did after switching to Linux was download and
>> install Blender, because someone told me it was really cool. I tried to
>> do something "practical". I failed. I didn't have a single clue what
>> Blender was used for. This wasn't a failing of the interface.
>>
>> I just downloaded Blender 2.8, and even though now I have a few clues as
>> to what Blender is used for, I still have absolutely no clue what to do
>> with Blender 2.8. Even the stuff I was shown regarding basic
>> photo-editing in previous versions of Blender, seems to have moved. Not
>> that I would ever recommend anyone using any version of Blender to edit
>> photographs.
>>
>> There is a great big *huge* difference between being a student in a
>> classroom with a *teacher* explaining the interface and how to use the
>> program, and especially for complete newbies who've never used
>> equivalent software and possibly having no clue what the software can
>> used for, vs having these same newbies trying to figure it out on their
>> own.
>>
>>> So we do need to know
>>> how newbies see GIMP for the first time.
>>
>> I used PhotoShop for several years. When I first started using GIMP-2.9
>> I found GIMP to be basically "just like PhotoShop". I had deliberately
>> set PhotoShop (the CS2 version) up in Multi Window Mode (detached all
>> the dialogs to be free-floating, leaving a skinny bar at the top of the
>> screen with menus and such), just about as soon as I started using it,
>> so the whole "Single Window/Multiple Windows" issue wasn't even a
>> consideration. I like MWM, it allows to maximize configurability and
>> screen real estate.
>>
>> My problems with using GIMP have been, in order of importance:
>>
>> 1. The lack of support for high bit depth editing, which finally became
>> more or less possible after 2013, using GIMP-2.9.
>>
>> 2. The lack of support for editing in RGB color spaces other than sRGB,
>> which in 2019 *still* GIMP lacks support for editing in RGB color spaces
>> other than sRGB.
>>
>> 3. The lack of adjustment layers.
>>
>> 4. To a lesser extent for me, but high on the list for anyone with a
>> high volume workflow, is the lack of an easy way to record and play
>> sequences of editing steps. Programming at the command line to achieve
>> this goal is not a simple task, so it's no substitute for some
>> equivalent of PhotoShop macros.
>>
>> 5. Not a problem for me, but GIMP lacks good CMYK support, which many
>> photographers simply don't need. But apparently some do, though I'm
>> guessing the DTP people and graphic designers are the ones who really,
>> really, really need CMYK.
>>
>> I know of other people who are familiar with using PhotoShop, who also
>> find GIMP easy to use, *except* for items 2, 3, and 4 listed above. From
>> perusing forums, some or all of these items are "deal breakers" for
>> many, many people who would otherwise switch to GIMP. Though personally
>> I don't know of anyone for whom lack of good CMYK support is the actual
>> "deal breaker".
>>
>> GIMP's current user interface is the *least* important problem when it
>> comes to actual usability. Adding still-missing critical functionalities
>> is hugely more important than revising the interface to make it simpler
>> for newbies. It's a complete shame that the switch to GTK3/4 has had to
>> take priority over adding critical missing functionalities to GIMP.
>>
>>> So we do need to know
>>> how newbies see GIMP for the first time.
>>
>> Regarding being a "complete newbie", my first editing software was Corel
>> PhotoPaint. PhotoPaint was incredibly well-documented on the internet,
>> "complete newbies" had vast resources available to them. And most online
>> tutorials on PhotoShop could be followed using PhotoPaint.
>>
>> GIMP also has extensive online documentation and tutorials, and again
>> most PhotoShop tutorials can be followed using GIMP. All it takes is the
>> willingness to search and learn. Asking "newbies to GIMP" and/or
>> "complete newbies" to use GIMP without giving them access to the
>> internet, seems like an odd thing to do in this age of instant information.
>>
>> Though sadly search engines seem to be replacing first-page links to
>> articles on "how to edit using software like PhotoPaint/PhotoShop/GIMP"
>> with links to articles on how use to "instant push-button pretty",
>> AI-driven software.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Elle