Re: [Gimp-gui] gimp-gui-list Digest, Vol 34, Issue 3

[Terry Pinfold <tpinfold gmail com>]

Hi all,

    Just like to add to conversation to say I like the GUI of GIMP. I like that I can customise the icons and theme used. I like that I can run single window mode or multi-window mode. Like any program you have to invest time and effort to learn it. I teach GIMP and I teach Photoshop to adult students through community education. GIMP has been consistent in its GUI throughout the years making it easy to adapt to new versions. On the other hand Adobe products change stuff a lot just for the sake of change (or so it seems). I know this because I have students with various versions of Adobe Lightroom or Photoshop in the same class and I have to give different instructions for each version. While I own Photoshop I default to using GIMP because I prefer it. If someone else prefers Photoshop it is their choice. I see Photoshop as a professional tool to be used in a suite of programs and as such it probably has a smoother workflow switching between the various programs in the web designer or creative suites. GIMP is made by volunteers and it is not practical to constrain these volunteers to the same GUI as other FOSS. I feel to suggest this is well intentioned but not practical. But even Adobe lack consistency in GUI and how programs work when you compare Photoshop Elements, Photoshop and Lightroom. It is like these programs came from three different universes. Anyway great job being done by the volunteers to get out GIMP 2.10.10.

Thanks 

Terry

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 at 22:22, <gimp-gui-list-request gnome org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency (Elle Stone)
   2. Re: [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency (Alexandre Prokoudine)
   3. Re: [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency (VIKASH SINGH)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:43:28 -0400
From: Elle Stone <ellestone ninedegreesbelow com>
To: gimp-gui-list gnome org, VIKASH SINGH
        <vikashsingh25011999 gmail com>
Subject: Re: [Gimp-gui] [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency
Message-ID:
        <7b6266b8-9b9d-dda7-b82b-afb7ba088118 ninedegreesbelow com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Hi Vikash,

I agree with everything Jehan said in his response to your email, but
wanted to add some comments and ask a couple of questions:

On 04/18/2019 02:51 PM, VIKASH SINGH via gimp-gui-list wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am UI/UX Designer and I am interested to discuss some experience...
>
> This discussion is not only for GIMP but for Inkscape and Scribus too. If
> we visit GIMP website their is quote GIMP is best used in workflows
> involving other free software such as Scribus, Inkscape and SwatchBooker.
> And Yes It is.

It seems to me that "it" depends entirely on what a person actually uses
GIMP for. Speaking for myself, I don't even have Inkscape, Scribus, or
SwatchBooker installed on my computer. Instead I use GIMP for painting
and photography, in conjunction with RawTherapee, darktable, PhotoFlow,
Krita, Hugin, Exiftool, digiKam, etc, etc.

How would your proposed changes to GIMP cohere with workflows that don't
involve DTP and instead center around other tasks and goals for which
people use GIMP, such as photography/painting/HDR processing/fits/fine
art print production/video display output/image retouching, and etc?


>
> Most Forums I visit, I have found biggest complain from users is not having
> good User Interface for these Applications. If we think for one second for
> only one App GIMP then the User Interface is Ok. But when it is used in
> workflows involving other free software then it is bad experience.

People who don't like a software's interface tend to complain on forums.
People who do like the interface, tend to not feel any need to tell the
world they like the interface.

Despite what various UI experts might want to believe, there is no "one
size fits all" user interface. One person's "good user interface" can be
another person's usability nightmare. Personally, I found darktable and
Krita difficult to learn, but GIMP easy and intuitive. I've communicated
with people who's experiences with these programs match my own, and also
with people who report the exact opposite experiences. Also I prefer
Gray themes and color icons, and I've communicated with some people who
share my preferences and with other people who greatly prefer Dark
themes and gray icons. Choice is good.


> A Graphic Designer in Industry have to used all three raster, vector and
> publishing applications. And Professional designers don't want to learn
> applications they want to work done in much less time. Today I am finding
> cases where designer don't even want to learn Adobe Illustrator they
> preferring to use modern design apps Sketch and Adobe Xd that have few
> functionalities but better experience.

If a Graphic Designer doesn't want to learn how to use
"Illustrator/Inkscape/Whatever Else is Required to Get the Job Done",
that seems like an excellent reason to hire someone else. Speaking
anecdotally, while working for a small company I was asked to use a DTP
application to put out the monthly news letter, also including preparing
graphics and writing copy. At that point I didn't even know there was
such a thing as "DTP", but I figured it out and never missed an issue.
Another job required editing an Illustrator file as the person who made
the file was no longer around. I made the requested edits even though
I'd never used Illustrator before.

These sorts of programs aren't rocket science. Yes, they all have a
learning curve. Any software with advanced functionalities has a
learning curve. But learning software is just like learning anything
else - you pick a task, or get handed a task, and figure out that task,
and then move on to the next one. Pretty soon you are an expert.

The best advice anyone can give an aspiring Graphics Designer who only
wants to use software with "few functionalities but better experience"
is to get over it and "learn to learn". These people aren't the ones who
should be dictating software choices or UIs as they simply don't have
the experience to know good softwares or UIs from bad.


>
> __________________
> What is issue here ?
> __________________
>
> Not having consistency with the other two software's.
>
> 1. Different Layouts & themes
> 2. Different Icon Sets

I don't know about Scribus or Inkscape. But GIMP already provides a huge
array of user configuration options for layouts, themes, icons, keyboard
shortcuts, etc.

If DTP people really do want GIMP/Scribus/Inkscape to all somehow "look
more alike", then hopefully the DTP people can come up with "look alike
themes/icons/shortcuts/etc" to distribute for all three programs.


> 3. Different Task Flow
> 4. Different Tools Manipulators Flow(can create understanding problem)

Could you elaborate more on what you mean by "task flow" and "tools
manipulators flow"?

It's not clear to me that a program like GIMP - which is used for such a
hugely diverse array of editing tasks and output goals - should be or
even could be optimized/shoe-horned into a set task flow.


> 5. One have that feature another not and etc.
> 6. (Everything that create inconsistency in these applications)

Why do you want all these programs to have the same features?

Do you want to throw away the "not in common" features? Or do you want
to add all the features from all the programs to all the programs?


> ___________________
>
> Even I Know its hard to solve. I already chatted with Inkscape developers
> regarding this few months back that UI is so much locked. But even they
> also wanted to have some consistency.
>
> I really want to see GIMP, Inkscape & Scribus team come together to work on
> similar ideas concepts, designs and task flow to maintain consistency.

I don't know about Scribus or Inkscape. But GIMP interface is already
highly configurable, and "DTP-oriented" configurations could be
distributed as config files and themes/icons.

If the already available array of configuration options for GIMP isn't
sufficient to set GIMP up for use in an envisioned seamless DTP
workflow, then a specific list of what's missing would be a good place
to start.

Which brings the discussion around to Jehan's awesome idea of being able
to easily exchange files between programs. The ability to easily
exchange files between programs is something that would make imaging
workflows in general (not just DTP workflows) considerably easier. It
would be awesome to have the option to easily switch back and forth
between different applications, for example sending a flattened version
of the current image from GIMP to Krita to RawTherapee and back to GIMP,
etc, or from Scribus to GIMP and back, or etc.

Best,
Elle

> Thanks
> Vikash
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> gimp-gui-list mailing list
> gimp-gui-list gnome org
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-gui-list
>

--
https://ninedegreesbelow.com
Color management and free/libre photography


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:02:56 +0300
From: Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre prokoudine gmail com>
To: gimp-gui-list <gimp-gui-list gnome org>
Subject: Re: [Gimp-gui] [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency
Message-ID:
        <CAFjkzc2KtFdp5bAMLb4Q3WZUi2BTXc555Vp2-LNXHHo5_xpLcw mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 4:31 PM VIKASH SINGH via gimp-gui-list wrote:
>
> Hi All,

Hello.

I could give you a detailed reply on each of your points. In fact, I
did just that and then scrapped it. Here is why.

We (GIMP) have over 1.8K unsolved bug reports and feature requests,
and just four developers between GIMP and GEGL.

Inkscape team isn't all that larger, and they are in the middle of
working on v1.0.

Scribus team is currently one single developer working in his spare
time, of which he doesn't have much.

What do you expect these three teams to do, exactly?

I know what to do about specific bug reports and feature requests. I
can help file and triage them and then pray like hell that people will
have the time to work on that stuff.

I don't know what to do about vague ideas about some sort of missing
consistency between applications that are designed to do different
things and thus do it differently.

I don't know what to do about the idea of giving vastly different
applications the same feature set.

I don't know what to do about the claim that people don't want to
learn AI (vector graphics and illustration, print output), because
they have Sketch and XD (UX prototyping).

Do you think you could make _actionable_ requests that we could
constructively discuss?

Alex


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 15:56:01 +0530
From: VIKASH SINGH <vikashsingh25011999 gmail com>
To: Elle Stone <ellestone ninedegreesbelow com>,
        gimp-gui-list gnome org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-gui] [GIMP Gui] User Interface Consistency
Message-ID:
        <CAOgcUHQ03WrqjsCosM8XYCpRwyxAbaeabk6c37WEs2EE7xmDFw mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Elle Stone,


On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 7:10 PM Elle Stone <ellestone ninedegreesbelow com>
wrote:

> It seems to me that "it" depends entirely on what a person actually uses
> GIMP for. Speaking for myself, I don't even have Inkscape, Scribus, or
> SwatchBooker installed on my computer. Instead I use GIMP for painting
> and photography, in conjunction with RawTherapee, darktable, PhotoFlow,
> Krita, Hugin, Exiftool, digiKam, etc, etc.
>
> How would your proposed changes to GIMP cohere with workflows that don't
> involve DTP and instead center around other tasks and goals for which
> people use GIMP, such as photography/painting/HDR processing/fits/fine
> art print production/video display output/image retouching, and etc?
>

I agree and understand well. Changing something for particular kind of users
(DTP users) leaving others (Digital artists& Photographers) that what I
don't mean.
Even I don't saying to change everything to give consistence. I understand
how much
difficult to do that. Even changing something can create problems to
exiting users
how they use these programs in which way.


>
> > 3. Different Task Flow
> > 4. Different Tools Manipulators Flow(can create understanding problem)
>
> Could you elaborate more on what you mean by "task flow" and "tools
> manipulators flow"?
>
> It's not clear to me that a program like GIMP - which is used for such a
> hugely diverse array of editing tasks and output goals - should be or
> even could be optimized/shoe-horned into a set task flow.
>

These points tends to hard to explain without going on deep research on each
programs but I will try to explain in much simple way. What a user want
from these
programs is their goal(final image vector, raster, pdf, etc). Now Goals are
divided into
activities which in turn divided into tasks which again divided into
actions.

Now lets take an example for aligning objects, In GIMP, align options you
will find in tool box.
In Inkscape, align options it is dialog access from object menu. In
Scribus, it is in dialog access
from window menu. Now the task is same but actions are different for each
application. Which
will create confusing for first time users where to find align options. Now
I am not saying about
complete UI, I am approaching to little details that can solve for
consistency. But I can't say which
approach is better.

For that purpose only, I have share idea for having a website (common
communication channel )
for creative applications so users can share ideas where he can get
feedback and vote for their
features and share how to solving existed approach (like blender community
right click select).


>
> > 5. One have that feature another not and etc.
> > 6. (Everything that create inconsistency in these applications)
>
> Why do you want all these programs to have the same features?
>
> Do you want to throw away the "not in common" features? Or do you want
> to add all the features from all the programs to all the programs?
>
>
No No, I am not saying to bundle all the features to all the application so
it hard to distinguish
what is for what purpose. It is set of some common features that some or
these graphics
programs can share. Let's say I really like to have GIMP perspective tool
in Inkscape. Maybe,
In future someone added perspective tool in Inkscape but it did't behave
like GIMP perspective
tool. It some 3d circular manipulator(like 3d software have for scaling
rotating).

>From all these years, each team has approach to their own way of doing
things. Maybe in future
these teams approach same way of doing things by having and finding ideas
from one website
that is center communication for all these graphics applications.



>
> I don't know about Scribus or Inkscape. But GIMP interface is already
> highly configurable, and "DTP-oriented" configurations could be
> distributed as config files and themes/icons.
>
> If the already available array of configuration options for GIMP isn't
> sufficient to set GIMP up for use in an envisioned seamless DTP
> workflow, then a specific list of what's missing would be a good place
> to start.
>
> Which brings the discussion around to Jehan's awesome idea of being able
> to easily exchange files between programs. The ability to easily
> exchange files between programs is something that would make imaging
> workflows in general (not just DTP workflows) considerably easier. It
> would be awesome to have the option to easily switch back and forth
> between different applications, for example sending a flattened version
> of the current image from GIMP to Krita to RawTherapee and back to GIMP,
> etc, or from Scribus to GIMP and back, or etc.
>

Yes,  Even Jehan's Idea is a part to give consistency. Like same way their
is lot's of
way to follow but for all these atleast we need common hub communication
for
discussions between these teams and users. What is the need of saying these
all to
one team if another teams and users have just unaware of it.

Ok, Developers want to solve specific bug report and feature request maybe
that
feature is common feature and it can benefit all these graphics
applications but never
discussed before that how it works and just added in one program. Maybe
other have
implemented the same feature with changes how it works. These things can be
discussed
other teams.

Thanks
Vikash
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End of gimp-gui-list Digest, Vol 34, Issue 3
********************************************

--

Dr Terry Pinfold
Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager

University of Tasmania 

17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000

Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053