Re: [Gimp-developer] [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>]

I think this sums up my (and many other people's) sentiment perfectly:

> To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses
the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation
where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t
know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either
has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a
well known commercial product or shut up.

This seems to be the culture of he GIMP project--despite a clear
unwillingness to admit that.

Personally, I felt like telling you that that is wrong, because GIMP is
such an amazing piece of software that it would deserve better--and I did.
Many people won't do that, so don't think a lot of people don't share my
sentiment.

I will acknowledge that what we've been talking about is not only how
Alexandre sees fit to treat both newbies and critics, but how the whole
GIMP team does. That's fine with me. Hopefully this will not drive too many
people--including those who would contribute greatly like Simone did--away
from the project.

This discussion will not change anything, so you guys take this feedback as
you see fit, over and out.

 Have a good one, ciao.

Niccolo

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:19 PM Simone Karin Lehmann <simone lisanet de>
wrote:

> hhmm, well, just reading this whole thread here on the gimp-devel mailing
> list and on reddit, I really have to admit that Niccolo is right.
>
> The very first posting of Niccolo on reddit, that I can find is an answer
> to another user about a new version for Arch Linux, in which he simply says
>
> "No GTK 3..?“
>
> and getting an answer from that user, that Version 3.0 will bring it. He
> than wrote
>
> "Ah, I see.
> Is there a release date? I've heard that it already works well…“
>
> With all respect to anybody on this list and to Alexandre in special, I
> really can’t see any sign of ranting about GIMP or complaining in an
> inappropriate way.
>
> After Alex joins in with his remark that…
>
> "We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“
>
> Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely and explains why, in his
> opinion, he thinks planned release dates are better than solely saying "we
> don't do release dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this
> sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that he might be wrong, though.
>
> This, IMO, must have something triggered in Alex’s mind, because after
> quoting only a few words out of context, he confronted Nicollo with a
> totally new topic Nicollo never mentioned, just to compare this topic to
> his quote, only to force him to justify his opinion and laying the ground
> for further hitting on Niccolo.
>
> Well, and so it came …
>
> To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses
> the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation
> where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t
> know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either
> has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a
> well known commercial product or shut up.
>
> And sorry to say so, it's not only Alex...
>
> Although I know, that my posting here won’t change the situation, I
> couldn’t stand it not to write it.
>
> BTW, this attitude was one of the reasons I’ve taken my site
> gimp.lisanet.de offline.
>
> Simone Karin
>
>
>
> Am 16.11.2018 um 12:40 schrieb C R via gimp-developer-list <
> gimp-developer-list gnome org>:
>
> Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)
>
> Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery,
> -C
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com wrote:
>
> ...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole
> thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out
> loud.
>
> How sad is this culture you've created.
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R <cajhne gmail com> wrote:
>
> As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to)
> customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or
> pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them
> something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP.
> People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to
> deal with it all the time.
>
> People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a
> fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly
> flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP
> contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the
> world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a
> constructive attitude (as part of the community).
>
> We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning
> stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks
> primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my
> best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain
> rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even
> in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.
>
> Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all
> our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our
> users.
>
> Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)
>
> Just my thoughts.
> -C
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list <
> gimp-developer-list gnome org wrote:
>
> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose trevor gmail com:
>
>
> 3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
> channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email
>
> group,
>
> and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each
>
> post,
>
> thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
> identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST
>
> IMPORTANTLY
>
> you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields
>
> and
>
> filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some
>
> amount of
>
> abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion
>
> beyond
>
> an accepted threshold/limit.
>
>
> Hi Trevor,
>
> I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to
> manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people
> to
> contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.
>
> Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more
> complicated
> while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of
> pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with
> moderation.
>
> So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and
> takes
> just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of
> rare
> outbursts like this one.
>
> Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you
> consider superior communication channels.
>
> Alex
>
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> --
>
> Niccolo.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
Niccolo.