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Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my
mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive
attitude to not stop this natural process of mine.

You ended your reply with "you were a dick", I said that I have 3 more.
It's 4 or us so far, then.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:29 PM C R <cajhne gmail com> wrote:


And again, nothing is learned. More name calling, and it's everyone else
that's the problem.

If anyone else wondering why the sarcasm all the time, look in the mirror.
lol


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:25 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com> wrote:


Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me
are dicks, too.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R <cajhne gmail com> wrote:




Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and
therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I
was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
better (which I had an extremely open mind about).



You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not
wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually
wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset...
like way upset. :)



The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.



That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it
hard to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back
later to continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But
whatever.



As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks
employees and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.



You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
users asked for was done).

Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially
in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
control your own temper in these threads.




I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.



You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying
to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.



I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he
implies, and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of
GIMP saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and
not worth explaining things.



You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.



I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
it".



Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and
not on this mailing list.

If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.




Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not
just GIMP culture, that's life in general.

-C




On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <cajhne gmail com> wrote:


From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
thread:

"I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was
just justifying me complaining.

Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code
that makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
become a GIMP dev?
Jesus..."

What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all
sorts of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect
everyone involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.

This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)

Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.

Just an outsider's perspective.
-C



On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
gimp-developer-list <gimp-developer-list gnome org> wrote:


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>
wrote:


Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't

know if

people can read it.

Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you

keep

saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).



I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately
-- you
have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they
call me
a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will
help
your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.



Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team,

but

considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important

that they

know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your

behavior is

appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If

it's not,

don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be

as much

of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree

with

you.



I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
for,
is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:

https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html

"Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid
repetitive
arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."

Please consider rethinking your interaction here.

Good day to you.

Alex




On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:




On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>

wrote:



OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone

who

doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to

people.


It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with

you. I

guess it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and

--in

case they have the courage to approve my message or at least

reply--if they

approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure

your behavior

is OK?).



I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the

mailing lists

you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people

get

emails sent to those list.



I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me

don't as

much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),



Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only

two other

problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can

pinpoint

the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:


A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg

guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just

wanted to

tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact

same

ground with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:



https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/


There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to

use in

GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to

say that

lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's

"mindset

of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing

I said

in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying

"Facts...

Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off

the

ropes.

And Exhibit B:


[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another

thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on

something.

Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread:


https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/


Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend

shocking 3

minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords,

mansplaining, and

patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person

characterized the

official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about

the

very same thread --


https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/

-- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes

between

versions.

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of

tagging a

release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for

the next

version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart

attack,


save for our friend /u/Unchayned <

https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned>




here."

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think

our

interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven

wrong.


Alex



and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility

for your

actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for

yourself only,

but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:


Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a

have a

conversation with people who come with preconceptions about

something they

are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn

before

drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to

releases

we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I

should have

kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos

verbal

abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>:


Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying

that he's

a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and

doing things

that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?)

role, which

makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):

I've

had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest

exchange is



https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq

from the Reddit thread at


https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.

While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty.

What triggered

Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better

than random

ones, because people like IT administrators might have to

upgrade hundreds

of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think

he

understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should

refactor

GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).

Regardless,

instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release

because, bla

bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically

saying that I had

no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but

neither is he

more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something:

just because

of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,

which is

what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas

with people

that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and

to be honest

sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I

didn't say

nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally

different

beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I

started

getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre

attacked around

Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:


A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that

alexlg guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it.

Just wanted to

tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the

exact same

ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in

another

thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough

people had

dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on

something.

Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff

like

"oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about

it", or using

"we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"

being

important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow

users, because

what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create

awesome free

stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when

I found out

that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in

non-technical ways.

This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a

developer but

not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while

pretending to be a

developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned

from

communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only

he's

doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the

project. It's easy

to relate to people that agree with you, they're already

passionate GIMP

users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to

really talk to,

because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an

awesome project

you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn

a critic

into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,

pretending

to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for

the dev team,

since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled

assholes.


I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop

Alexandre

from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me

since I would

assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just

maybe) you guys

are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with

this

behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for

someone who

either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.


Niccolo.
--
Niccolo.


--

Niccolo.


--

Niccolo.




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--

Niccolo.


--

Niccolo.


--

Niccolo.
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